Moderator: William Thornton
Sandy wrote:Well said. If I read the BFM2000 correctly, the only role restricted to men only in an SBC church is that of "senior pastor." I can see a woman being nominated, though I don't see one being elected anytime soon.
Tim Bonney wrote:Sandy wrote:Well said. If I read the BFM2000 correctly, the only role restricted to men only in an SBC church is that of "senior pastor." I can see a woman being nominated, though I don't see one being elected anytime soon.
It seems unlikely that a denomination that doesn't want women in lead pastoral roles would make a woman the head of the denomination. If I were a betting man I'd bet no woman president of the SBC in my lifetime.
William Thornton wrote:You're getting long in the tooth, bro.
I would not expect it either but there's no reason I can see why not.
According to the linked article:Dave Roberts wrote:Prior to 1979, there were a couple of women who held one of the vice-president spots in the SBC. One was Myra Bates, and I do not remember the other.
The first woman to be elected an SBC officer was Mrs. R.L. Mathis, a former WMU president who was elected second vice president in 1963 and became the first woman to preside during an SBC annual meeting in 1964, Deweese said in a 1977 address to the Florida Baptist Historical Society.
Mathis was nominated for SBC president in 1972, Deweese said, and Mrs. Carl Bates was elected second vice president in 1976.
93. President White called on Second Vice-President Mrs. R. L. Mathis (Ala.) to preside during the evening session and called attention to the significant fact that this was the first time a woman had presided over a session of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Tim Bonney wrote:William Thornton wrote:You're getting long in the tooth, bro.
I would not expect it either but there's no reason I can see why not.
Yep friend, I'm turning into an old man quickly.I could be wrong. But if I didn't believe a woman can pastor a church I don't know why I'd believe they could/should lead a church denomination. Baptists can and do surprised me sometimes. So, we will see.
Sandy wrote:Of course, being president of the SBC really doesn't involve leading the denomination. The position has some high level of visibility in the Baptist press around convention time, or if there is some kind of controversy, but other than appointing the committee on committees, wields no authority other than to control the gavel at the annual meeting, which is highly regulated by the parliamentarian.
Tim Bonney wrote:Sandy wrote:Of course, being president of the SBC really doesn't involve leading the denomination. The position has some high level of visibility in the Baptist press around convention time, or if there is some kind of controversy, but other than appointing the committee on committees, wields no authority other than to control the gavel at the annual meeting, which is highly regulated by the parliamentarian.
I think Judge Pressler and Dr. Patterson would chuckle at your evaluation of the SBC President not being that involved in leading the denomination as the election of the “right” SBC President year after year was a key to the SBC Takeover. If anything, I always thought the position was too powerful. Methodists have Bishops and we don’t give any of them that kind of individual power over a committee that nominates national leadership.
Sandy wrote:That is definitely a high level of power, naming the committee, but there is nothing about that specific responsibility that an inerrantist could point to and say that a woman is disqualified from serving in that capacity. The power is within the structure of a denomination, and denominations are not churches, nor sanctioned or created in scripture. It is not a church office, and does not wield any power or authority that could be said to be ecclesiastical or spiritual of a woman being over a man.
Tim Bonney wrote:Sandy wrote:That is definitely a high level of power, naming the committee, but there is nothing about that specific responsibility that an inerrantist could point to and say that a woman is disqualified from serving in that capacity. The power is within the structure of a denomination, and denominations are not churches, nor sanctioned or created in scripture. It is not a church office, and does not wield any power or authority that could be said to be ecclesiastical or spiritual of a woman being over a man.
Yet, in the SBC constitution or not, the President of the SBC has a heck of a lot more power than the average pastor of the average church. And their influence would certainly effect the lives of male and female Southern Baptists.
It’s a odd bit of polity.
Tim Bonney wrote:Sandy wrote:That is definitely a high level of power, naming the committee, but there is nothing about that specific responsibility that an inerrantist could point to and say that a woman is disqualified from serving in that capacity. The power is within the structure of a denomination, and denominations are not churches, nor sanctioned or created in scripture. It is not a church office, and does not wield any power or authority that could be said to be ecclesiastical or spiritual of a woman being over a man.
Yet, in the SBC constitution or not, the President of the SBC has a heck of a lot more power than the average pastor of the average church. And their influence would certainly effect the lives of male and female Southern Baptists.
It’s a odd bit of polity.
33 For God is not a God of disorder but of peace—as in all the congregations of the Lord’s people.
34 Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. 35 If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.
8 Therefore I want the men everywhere to pray, lifting up holy hands without anger or disputing. 9 I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10 but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
There are some women I’d vote for {for SBC President} in a heartbeat. There are some I wouldn’t vote for in a millenium. Same for men.
KeithE wrote:Natural interpretation is women should not be allowed to make any noise at church nor can they speak - no women choir members, children’s SS teachers, children’s sermons, chatter when making food, prayers, talk about who needs help, nursery comforting, etc. Nothing talks about being a senior pastor, yet that what the SBC has made of this verse. If this much leeway/selected application is left for “interpretation", one could make the bible say just about anything.
Haruo wrote:KeithE wrote:Natural interpretation is women should not be allowed to make any noise at church nor can they speak - no women choir members, children’s SS teachers, children’s sermons, chatter when making food, prayers, talk about who needs help, nursery comforting, etc. Nothing talks about being a senior pastor, yet that what the SBC has made of this verse. If this much leeway/selected application is left for “interpretation", one could make the bible say just about anything.
I don't think I've ever heard of ANY church (or even cult), no matter how misogynistic and no matter how literal-minded about the Bible text, that actually construes "silent" here as meaning "silent" and as being binding on churches outside ancient Corinth and/or churches under the immediate oversight of Paul of Tarsus.
Haruo wrote:But it's mere human polity, whereas the senior pastor bit is (held to be by many) Divine in its origin and authority.
William Thornton wrote:About a woman being SBC president
Try and offer a cogent comment Stephen. If you could get in as a messenger to the convention next year (it's in Birmingham) you could nominate one of the CollInsville ladies.
Stephen Fox wrote:Marie Griffith has a great piece about this likelihood up today at the easily googled site Religion and Politics. She starts off with a Molly Worthenesque bang I'm sure Thornton and Sandy will catch out of the gates.
When the Supreme Court decriminalized abortion in 1973’s Roe v Wade decision, Southern Baptist leaders appeared to support access to abortion, at least under circumstances with which they could sympathize. Ninety percent of Texas Baptists surveyed in 1969 had affirmed that their state’s abortion laws should be loosened. ...
After the 7-2 ruling in Roe was announced, W.A. Criswell, one of the denomination’s most prominent and respected leaders, praised the court’s decision, publicly asserted his view that abortion is not murder, and argued that “what is best for the mother and for the future should be allowed.”
No wonder so many white evangelicals are infatuated with and captivated by the authoritarian occupying the White House. It’s been a long time coming.
Haruo wrote:I don't think I've ever heard of ANY church (or even cult), no matter how misogynistic and no matter how literal-minded about the Bible text, that actually construes "silent" here as meaning "silent" and as being binding on churches outside ancient Corinth and/or churches under the immediate oversight of Paul of Tarsus.
Rvaughn wrote:Haruo wrote:I don't think I've ever heard of ANY church (or even cult), no matter how misogynistic and no matter how literal-minded about the Bible text, that actually construes "silent" here as meaning "silent" and as being binding on churches outside ancient Corinth and/or churches under the immediate oversight of Paul of Tarsus.
https://ntrf.org/interpreting-1-corinthians-1433b-35-part-1/
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