Death Tolls

[KeithE]

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Most of the 1000 are civilians and children. 40 of the 42 Israeli deaths are from the IDF (Israeli Defense Force).

5870 Palestinians are wounded and medical supplies are scarce while Israel forces has intensified the bombing of the tunnels and the enforcement naval and air .

As of this morning: with the US voting for this temporary ceasefire.

Latest more precise updated data - 1067 Gazans dead (at least 700 civilians and 200 children); 43 Israelis dead (almost all are soldiers)

Four days ago the with 17 countries abstaining.



My conclusions:
1) Hamas is tactically dumb to lob rockets into Israel (Iron Dome is working quite well and Hamas should know it will only bring a strong counterforce).
2) Israel is using disproportional response which is probably against and is clearly immoral (worse than being dumb, imo).
3) US is soft on Israeli use of force; the reasons are unclear (political pandering to Jewish and Fundamentalist voters? does Israel have some blackmail material on us?)

[Tim Bonney]

Keith, I agree with much of what you've said. I think the Israeli government has the right to defend itself but I don't believe that a strategy that kill hundreds and hundreds of non-combatants is a moral solution. Before the Gaza response Israelis were not being injured. I would think that allows for a more cautious and proportional response.

Hamas is foolish beyond belief. But the population of civilian Palestinians is caught right in the middle of this mess.

[Dave Roberts]

[James]

I also agree on all counts, but there is one additional fact. It started with the death of three presumably innocent teenagers which enraged the Israelis. Then some Israeli fanatics killed a Palestinian in reprisal. Then the Israeli police caught the fanatics who are now awaiting/being prosecuted for murder. This is where the whole thing should have stopped, but it did not. And it escalates.

[Neil Heath]

Following up on James' post, Israel has now admitted they knew that Hamas was not responsible for the deaths of the 3 teenagers. I'm not sure when they knew.

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

[David Flick]

[Sandy]

Don't think for a minute that everything that comes out of Israel is truthful, and not propaganda either. Israel's bottom line is the billions in aid they receive from the US, and they are good at exploiting the prejudices and religious bias of America, in spite of the fact that Israel is actually a secular state, and not a Jewish one.

War is evil, and Israel bears just as much responsibility for getting this one going as Hamas does. Hamas exists, and has gained popular support because the policies of Israel, under Netanyahu, have been overly oppressive, and are overkill when it comes to their self-protection.

[Ed Pettibone]

[KeithE]

[Sandy]

It's hard to nail down Jewish religious practice, since it is difficult to distinguish between Jewish as a racial and cultural element, and the actual belief and practice when it comes to religious tradition. Synagogue attendance, which is probably not as big a factor in Judaism as church attendance is for Christians, involves only 23% regularly, and an additional 22% in an unspecified "occasionally." But that's a Jewish survey of Judaism in Israel which is used to garner support from American Jews in particular, who tend to be much more involved in religious practices. Likewise, the representative government is comprised of only 20% of those Jews who fall into the "practicing" category, much, much less than the Christian composition of the US Congress. And that's under a constitution that limits the rights of those who hold any other religious practice except Judaism.

I'd say the 80-20 figure, which is pretty much the common suggestion, 80% non religious, is probably accurate. The state, and its constitution, are clearly secular.

[KeithE]

Stands at 1650 Palestinians killed (80% civilians, 18% children); 63 Israelis killed (<5% civilians).

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I can find no other figures to indicated otherwise.