How does a non-creedal people set parameters

[Ed Pettibone]

This is the essence of a question that came up in our BOM (Board of Missions) meeting to day. I don't know if any one will take me up on it but I gave a blanket invitation for them to come here to discuss this question. So Haruo, if you get a few new registrations from the state of NY you will know why. Yet I think it is a vital question.

[Haruo]

[Haruo]

Just so you get an idea what I run into daily, here's the last 9 hour' new registrants, all deleted without a second glance:

ReefShoof Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:49 pm Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:49 pm Newly registered account -
Bincornsurn Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:34 pm Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:34 pm Newly registered account -
Befclullyzolf Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:31 pm Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:31 pm Newly registered account -
macuvnackd Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:58 pm Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:58 pm Newly registered account -
ValoTooca Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:39 pm Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:39 pm Newly registered account -
Utesytusakalt Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:22 pm Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:22 pm Newly registered account -
soostaniarm Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:03 pm Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:03 pm Newly registered account -
Arrormems Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:36 am Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:36 am Newly registered account -
goolleros Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:01 am Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:01 am Newly registered account -
mabcinacmd Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:55 am Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:55 am Newly registered account -
elaterediarne Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:27 am Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:27 am Newly registered account -
deromeolrm Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:20 am Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:20 am Newly registered account -
wmodsawayd Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:03 am Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:03 am Newly registered account -
nhgzvy Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:35 am Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:35 am Newly registered account -
statwheveme Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:33 am Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:33 am Newly registered account -
noberopele Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:19 am Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:19 am Newly registered account -

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

At work we often set guidelines for say a type of meeting (say a Design Review). We give desired end goals (design is mature enough and settled enough to start “bending metal”). We ask for objective evidence for design features we want to see before approving the Design and even suggest a meeting agenda. But we do not dictate the agendas of those meetings, nor do we censure anyone for not following the agenda precisely or not showing all the asked for objective evidence (some of which might be superfluous in many cases) but do hold them more closely to fulfilling the desired end goals. We simply ask that the performers consider the guidelines (goals, subject matters for completeness, so-called “exit criteria”) in presenting the Design Review. The key is that Guidelines are meant to be suggestive not used as a source for condemnation.

I do not see why churches could not set such non-rigid “parameters" for church membership/leadership positions and still lay claim to being “non-creedal”. The key is church Judaizers have to not be eager to condemn, gatekeep or ex-communicate especially if perspective members/ leadership are showing a willing attitude of cooperation and are accomplishing the main goal of church membership (loving God and man and active participation). Paul thought in this manner when he instructed the Galatians to "Stand Firm and do not submit to the yoke of slavery.” (Gal 5:1).

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: I like this, We ask for objective evidence. But then I tend to get lost when you throw in a subjective term such as church Judaizers

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

[Gene Scarborough]

Good question to start a good discussion, Ed!!!

The question is the union of opposites = "some edges without it becoming concrete" is another way to express it, I think.

In the past Baptists used Autonomy to express it. That worked well and led to phenominal growth. To make it more formed we said, "The Bible is our guide / God expressed in his Son, Jesus / the spreading of the Gospel."

What Southern Baptists did not say for long was that we are good with slave owners! That was the core divisive issue of the formation days. With such social festering, there was a split to Northern Baptists vs. Southern Baptists instantly. Then there were Primative / MIssionary / Northern / Southern / non-instrumental / snake handling --- too many to keep up with and most circling around some core values---argued over constantly. I have read many of the circulars sent around as a group tried to come up with a statement of their beliefs.

Here is the most real dilemma: Faith has no simple statement. It is more an emotion of Peace and Joy than some treatise to express is!

If you will notice, the Bible speaks mostly about the Joy of Salvation over just "salvation." Then we start fighting over the definition of "salvation" and joy goes out the window---quickly replaced by intellectual argument over something which is still an emotion over a statement.

I think the Love / Hate parameter is the key. If you can say something plain without engenders hate, you have performed a miracle which is in the area of God's power over man's propinsity to hate.

[KeithE]

[Gene Scarborough]

Another problem promoting separation and fussing over love and forgiveness, Keith!!

Makes me think of Cain and Abel and the first murder among mankind---all over whose gift is acceptable to God!

God just about created us "mean."

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

Ed can you define what you mean by "parameters?" Do you mean beliefs/doctrine? Do you mean structure/polity?

I would contend that without a enforcable faith statement you cannot create doctrinal parameters. You may be able to create an agreed upon polity/structure. But you will never get doctrinal agreement if you don't start out with a set of doctrines/faith statement/creed.

Feel free to agree/disagree. But I'd love for you to find any example in the free church tradition where a group was able to get doctrinal parameters without creating a creed/enforceable faith statement. I've yet to find one.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[KeithE]

[Tim Bonney]

Keith, I see you as being theologically progressive. Do you think that non-creedal denominations can set parameters that people will actually both agree to and follow? (And I really still have some confusion as to what "parameters" means. )

[Bruce Gourley]

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

Jesus kept it simple:

Example of love and healing along with true forgiveness of sin
Love the Lord and neighbor as self
Keep to the 10 Commandments and forget about the Pharisee fence built around the law
Do not turn God's House into a den of theives

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

Well said, brother!!!