What's wrong with this handling of a clergy abuse case?

[William Thornton]

[Dave Roberts]

It is an interesting letter for mercy or clemency. The reality is that the church seems to confuse forgiveness with the legal responsibility to pay one's debt to society and to make restitution for the broken lives left in the wake. Forgiveness is critical, but so is cleaning up the mess left behind by the failure. The tone seems much like what the Catholic Church has taken in restoring priests with forgiveness while trying to lessen legal responsibilities.

[johnfariss]

I must admit I am not familiar with the details of Moore's offenses/accusations. That said, however, the letter sounds good and has some good points: that they will continue to work with the man both during and after incarceration, and be some sort of accountability partner with him. Too many Christians are ready to turn their back on someone who is found guilty of a crime, disown them, pretend they no longer exist, etc.; I have seen this happen. On the other hand, I see some potential problems. For one thing, the "accountability partnership" arrangement would seem to presuppose honesty, and as a former law-enforcement officer, I have doubts that a pedophile will or can be that honest. I mean really: what child molester is going to tell an accountability partner, "Oh, I slipped this week and had sex with a kid," or even, "I was really, REALLY tempted this week to have sex with a kid, although I didn't." A counselor or psychologist highly trained and specializing in pedophilia may can tell when a "client" is lying, as can a good interrogator/investigator, but the average pastor or deacon is out of his area of expertise to deal with such a person; in fact, I can envision a scenario in which a pedophile, lying about feelings/attractions in a religious setting, would be so pressured by the guilt (assuming they are not also psychopathic) as to commit more and possibly worse crimes, and covering it up better, possibly even by murder. And although theologically I want to believe that God can change one's life and attractions and everything else, pragmatically, I "know" that there is no cure for pedophilia (assuming that is the nature of this man's problem), and that a pedophile will inevitably strike again, given the right circumstances. Consequently, any leniency based on such an arrangement as suggested or implied in this letter would be an invitation for future offenses. That they welcome him to participate in worship is good; that they will befriend him and keep him in an environment of exposure to the gospel is good; but if they assume a major change will happen as a result, and that afterwards, he can be trusted around children is an invitation to disaster. I hate to be so cynical, but it is what experience has taught me.

John Fariss

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: William says "The letter is signed by staff and deacons of his new church.
What's the problem with this? "

My answer is; Only that it is being made public. I was acquainted with this church several years ago while doing a church planting praxis in the area, and was impressed, despite its SBC affiliation. Check out their web site. BTW, I do not know D.M

And Dave I do not hear the pastor and deacons asking for either mercy or clemency. They clearly say "We are writing to inform you of our availability as a support and accountability group for Dan both during and after his incarceration. Perhaps they should not assume "his incarceration"?

[Tim Dahl]

This is great, in that it doesn't ask that he not go to jail. Instead, it provides a willingness to participate in his restoration "during and after incarceration." Is there something wrong with their attempts of confidentiality? Should churches not offer themselves to be used by the courts in appropriate situations?

Tim

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: for John Fariss

3/10/10

FRANKLIN, Ind. -- A former central Indiana minister pleaded guilty Thursday to felony charges stemming from a sexual relationship he had with a 15-year-old church member.



Former New Whiteland Baptist Church pastor Daniel Moore, 50, pleaded guilty to felony child solicitation and sexual misconduct charges.

Court documents indicated that police began investigating Moore after the girl's parents suspected a sexual relationship.

The teen told investigators that between January and March 2009, she and Moore kissed or engaged in sex acts at least seven times.

"I believe a lot of it was uncovered by finding notes and text messages in the young girl's bedroom," Johnson County Prosecutor Brad Cooper said last year. "I think there was some resistance by the victim to start with to report this, but I believe the persistence of parents had the young girl making this report to the police."

Johnson County deputy prosecutor Doug Cummins said Moore will be sentenced to 10 years in prison if a judge accepts the plea agreement.

Under the agreement, Moore must register as a sex offender and seek treatment in prison. Sentencing is set for April 8.
-30-

Note John, by definition sex acts with a 15 year old are technically outside the realm of pedophilia.
Pedophilia has to do with attraction to and or acting on such attraction involving prepubescent children.

[Haruo]

Without knowing (much, much) more about the sinner, the sin, the church, and what else the church may have done, I can't say. If this is all the church has done or is doing, then the lack of evidence of protection of its young people (and concern for same) is probably a major fault. I am not a trained psychologist, but I find it implausible (based on extrapolation from my experience as an alcoholic) that pedophilia is as monotone as johnfariss makes it out to be. I agree with Ed that the letter doesn't appear to be a plea for any special clemency on the court's part (justice should always be tempered with mercy, imo) and that in this forum it was probably a poor choice to break the church's and the sinner's anonymity. But in the absence of more data, these are merely comments on the comments, not responses to the question.

Not knowing more, I am favorably impressed but cautious.

I wrote the foregoing prior to the appearance of Ed's second post, which would modify my answers a bit but I don't have time to do it now...

[johnfariss]

Ed is right, the 15 year old issue makes pedophilia more "iffy." Some 15 year olds look more like 20, and others more like 12. Now that does nothing to lessen the fact that regardless of appearances, it was still RAPE (since a 15 year old does not have the legal capacity to give consent to sex), and it was still a supposedly Christian man having sexual relations outside of marriage, when he knew better from a legal, moral, and spiritual perspective. Whether this is an isolated incident in the man's life based on a single moral lapse, or is just the tip of the iceburg, remains an open question. Pedophiles typically do not ask for a birth certificate to establish whether the victim is a child or a pre-puberescent teen, they go by the appearance of what excites them. If it turns out that the sexual attraction was based on the girl having the appearance of an older, young woman, pediophilia is probably not an issue, although that should not lessen any penalities, and I believe it should disqualify the man from any future pastoral ministry. Even then, it is important to ascertain whether this is an isolated event, or if the man had abused other young women, which would indicate the pattern of a sexual predator. Again the letter has good points, I am just concerned, first with the possibility that this church is approaching it from a position of what amounts to good-intentioned navivete, and second, even if they are not, what message it sends to other churches, equally well-intentioned but less-well equipped to deal such issues as including pedophilia and sexual predators.

John

[William Thornton]

I got the case from Christa Brown's blog:

The letter seems to strike the right notes in that it is not a plea for the judge to forego jail time nor does it say what a wonderful father, husband, and pastor this guy is and was. It expresses availability for whatever measures of accountability might be helpful. The expression of brokeness, repentance, regret, and remorse along with the hours of Bible study etc has to be ignored. Presumably, the man gets a chance to express his remorse in court.

But here is what Christa, who is nothing if not astute about these things, notes in her blog. The guy has been in his new church "essentially anonymously" for the past ten months, implying that most of the congregation was unaware of the serious charges against him. Uh oh.

In a case like this is it essential that the church be informed, or just staff and key leadership? I'm inclined to the position that the church should be informed of the charges, of the restrictions on the man's interaction in the church, and on the staff's goal of helping the man. I can't imagine a parent in the church not wanting to be informed that the man was among them.

Christa asks, " how do you imagine the victim and her family might feel when they see such a letter from other Southern Baptist church officials?" I would suppose that they may be unhappy that the man has any support at all but I don't see how the 'Southern Baptist' or other church should not at some stage try and help the guy. He should never pastor again. You can't judge from the information given what the man's previous church did with respect to the victims and I don't know that his present church can be blamed. Of course, it is Christa's position that the SBC in some fashion take responsibility for these crimes.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Christa Brown]

[William Thornton]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Ed Pettibone]

[johnfariss]

I have to agree with Timothy here. There are "Long Island Lolita's" in the world, but no amount of sexuality on the part of a 15 year old girl absolves the guilt/blame/responsibility on the part of an grown man, especially one 50+ years old. As someone said, it takes two to tango, and the adult has to take that responsibility even if the under-age person does not. To assume that this girl is out of control (sexually) presupposes a lot for which evidence, at least in this forum, is lacking.

I understand what forgiveness is, and I know that sexual relations outside marriage is NOT the unpardonable sin. I have never argued otherwise. But forgiveness is one thing, and accepting the consequences for one's sin is another, as Dave pointed out early in this conversation.

And by the way: statutory rape IS still rape. We may not regard it as heinous as having sexual relations with a child of 10 or 12 or under, but is not that our human depravity speaking, and not the law, or perhaps not even the Bible?

John

[William Thornton]

Ed, the guy was 49 and the girl 15. He was her pastor. You want to blame the girl's parents? Blame her?

You are out to lunch on this one. See what your wife or grown daughters (if you have some) think of this.

[Ed Pettibone]

[johnfariss]

Ed, you are right in that according to the article you cited, statutory rape was not mentioned. According to it, the minister plead guilt to "felony child solicitation" and "sexual misconduct charges." As a former law enforcement officer, I tend to read articles like this between the lines. Note (1) he "plead" guilty, not he was "found" guilty. That suggests that he did not go to trial, but rather entered a plea bargain arrangement; (2) note that plea bargains are exactly that: the result of a "bargaining session," and in those, a district attorney (or states attorney, circuit solicitor, whatever the title in in the particular state) begins with the harshest charge that the evidence supports, while the defense attorney looks to lessor included offences, and the two bargain, trying to balance justice, the uncertainty of a trial, sometimes the emotional state, cooperation, and reliability of witnesses and victims, and frankly of costs--dollars and cents--in order to serve "justice" in some manner. I may be guilty of assuming the worst, but it is an informed opinion based on my own experiences; if I were a betting man (and I wasn't, even before I became a Christian), I would bet there was rape/statutory rape involved, especially as the article states, "The teen told investigators that between January and March 2009, she and Moore kissed or engaged in sex acts at least seven times."

You also said, "No where did I or any one else any thing about 'this girl' being 'out of control (sexually)'." In my comment about a class to help parents regain control of their teens I think the context will show that I had moved from the specifics of this case to possible ways to address the broader issue in a positive manner. My secondary point is and has been that by absolving all victims every where and at all times of all responsibility we compound the problem." OK, if that is what you meant. It is, however, not the way I took it based on your wording and the juxaposition of your statement, "I would also suggest some classes to help parents of teens learn to retake control of said teens" with the content of your 10:05 PM entry on 04/01. Others seemed to take it the same way too. But we all sometimes mis-speak, I ccertainly do. And in the print medium, there is not the availability to immediately clarify a statement as there is in face-to-face conversations.

John

[Ed Pettibone]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Ed Pettibone]

[William Thornton]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Hal Eaton]

It's too bad that the expression of opinions on both sides of this issue end up with reprimands, accusations, and name-calling on both sides.

Fact #1: There are middle-aged (and younger) (and older) men who might attempt to overcome their incapacities and inadequacies by seeking the admiration (and much else) from younger ladies (women)(girls).

Fact #2: There is an ample supply of teen-age girls whose up-bringing has neglected to give them a sense of well-being concerning themselves and their relationships. They are often referred to as boy-crazy; but many will offer themselves to older "targets" in their search for self-fulfillment.

Fact #3: There are middle-aged (and younger) (and older) women who will seek assurance of their femininity and attractiveness by seeking younger men (boys) for their own satisfactions. (Check out the plethora of "Cougar" news reports and TV plots . . .)

Fact #4: The "Cougars" don't have to look too far to find willing accomplices for their gratification.
Teen-age boys finding themselves hunted (and found) by older ladies seldom cry "Rape." In fact, they seldom cry at all.

So please don't acccuse me for being on any one side of this dispute. Rather than blaming any group referred to above, I can see the psychological pressures that result in conjoint ventures; I really feel little need to assess moral shortcomings to any participants. Many are more victims than perps. The negative results may well be greater for some than for others. Most generalities are false -- including this one.

I can't wait to hear someone say, "What if it is your daughter? granddaughter? sister? mother? wife?"
Or, from the distaff side, "What if it is your son? grandson? brother? father? husband?"

[William Thornton]

Ed and Hal are both ignorant here. The facts of the case don't lend themselves to your conclusion. Both of you foolishly blame the victim.

Ed is just more pointed in doing so: "I stand by that line as one part of how I am persuaded that Churches may to do more to address the issue of Clergy sexual abuse"

That "one part" of what churches could do to address the issue of clergy child sex abuse could be described like this: Teach girls not to try and seduce their middle aged ministers.

Ignorant.

Both of you might read Christa's book about her case.

Ignorant.

Timothy, I don't think the letter of the man's present church is an example of protecting the perp. Why do you think it is?