Cat Allen fillets Paige Patterson

[Stephen Fox]

It ain't pretty

Cat takes Paige to the cleaners on page 32 of the March issue of Baps Today.
Most of you should be getting your copy soon so we can expect comments here.
I think Thornton has an honorary subscription by virtue of his formal affiliation with this board.

Maybe somebody should rent a helicopter and fly over SWBTS and shower the campus with copies of the current issue so the truth will be evident; Lyndon Johnson woulda done it in Texas; what not some Texas activity for the Baptist Seminary in Texas

CAt's last paragraph is magnificent

SWBTS is now custodian of some rubble upon which Lottie Moon once preached Jesus. while her true living legacy now replicates itself in China. The stories in Fort Worth will cry out a message the seminary has officially rejected. Ye who have ears, listen to what the Spirit says!!!!!

[William Thornton]

Catherine Allen, former WMU exec, is author of the 1980 book on Lottie Moon, "The New Lottie Moon Story" and author of guest commentary in current issue of the moderate publication SBC Today entitled, "Lottie Moon legacy not captured in Texas." It is a piece critical of Paige Patterson and others involved in moving Lottie's Pingdu, China home to Southwestern Seminary in Ft. Worth.

In the article she says this: "I do not find proofs that she rejected Crawford Toy in marriage because of theological liberalism," a conclusion not shared by most (all?) others who have examined the matter. Note the quotation from an article by Dan Gentry Kent is retired professor of Old Testament, Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and president of the Baptist History and Heritage Society.

Eventually, she [Lottie Moon] began to hear of the controversy. "She obtained books which were representative of Toy's position which she studied. She became violently opposed to his views, broke off the engagement, and never married." (47) "Toy's family understood that there was an engagement which was broken because of religious differences." (48)

I would be interested in knowing why Allen seems to reject evidence that others find convincing about Lottie's ending her engagement to Toy.

Aside from that and from the usual bashing of Patterson that we get from mod/libs, Allen makes one good point in her SBC Today article: The current pastor of the church Lottie Moon established is (gasp!) a woman, and a woman who baptizes 200 people a year. Maybe the SBC could borrow her for a little while.

[Stephen Fox]

missing the point

http://sbcvoices.com/women-preachers-is ... mment-7828

[William Thornton]

missing the point

http://sbcvoices.com/women-preachers-is ... mment-7828

You will have noticed my challenges to the author of that post, Stephen, if you were paying attention.

I take her point. I also ask what evidence she disputes that seems to convince all others of Lottie Moon ending her engagement with Toy over his liberalism.

[Rock]

William,

While it is clear that Catherine Allen in her recent piece for Baptists Today does deny that she has seen any evidence that would convince her that relationship between Moon and Toy ended for theological reason, she further states that the reason it ended is immaterial. Bottom line, God had a higher calling for her life. The rest is history.

Is it not amazing that the church she planted is still blowing and going and bringing people to the lord all while being pastored by a woman. Truth is stranger than doctrine.

[Stephen Fox]

http://sbcvoices.com/women-preachers-is ... mment-7936

I commend my excellent comment #67 above in response to Dr. James Willingham to Rock and others who continue to follow this contretemp between Paige and Lottie.

[Stephen Fox]

http://sbcvoices.com/women-preachers-is ... mment-7957

Lot of sheen as comments developped at sbcvoices to inspire my latest there

DR Brumbelow from the depths of fundy wars has bubbled up there to carry his banner high.

In some fallen chorus had the thought it could be an appropriation of a Sweet time in Jesus if serendipitously we were to all come together as One and sing George Jones' Shine On; whose lyrics I may search for later.

[Stephen Fox]

ED SSunday W has a great blog inspired by a young woman in his church and Cat Allen's essay in the March essay of Baps Today.

I have praised him in his comment line there.

http://edsundaywinters.wordpress.com/20 ... ers-dress/

His stuff sometimes gets picked up by Christian Century blogs and this one is most deserving; and hopefully Johnny Pierce will get this to the attention of Cat Allen

I'm gonna take it to DR Brumbelow at SBC Voices.

[Stephen Fox]

There is a new comment on the post "Women Preachers: Is Lottie Moon Our Standard?". http://sbcvoices.com/women-preachers-is ... -standard/ Author: Dr. James WillinghamComment:Steve: I very nearly flunked out of the doctoral program, because I wrote a paper on verbal inspiration expressed in the article in the Billy Graham Lausanne Covenant in '74. The professor went ape, because he did not like the approach I took, but he put no mark on the paper as I had written it according to the standards required. Still he was willing to ruin me and would have, if a friend in the class had not warned me and told me what to do. Having studied many volumes on inspiration, inerrancy, and infallibility across the past 50 odd years, I seriously doubt that N.T. Wright can present a convincing enough case to undo the very view that Jesus Himself took of the Bible according to Kirsopp Lake and some other so-called liberals I have read. Now, just because some one adopts the view of inerrancy, that does not mean he or she is right or inerrant in their interpretations and understandings of the Bible. Also, I point out conservatives eat conservatives and moderates eat moderates, simply because once you set out to be an eater of thedisagreeable, you will soon find that you also eat your own. It is an unalterable law of pornography, the law of the Medes and the Persians. We are getting ready to have, I pray, another Great Awakening, and what is invovled in that is the right theology, a heavenly presence, and a spirit of humility. If the Awakening comes not (and I am no prophet or the son of one), and if the economy collapses as some have intended, our whole civilization, world-wide, will descend into chaos and calamities, with multitudes perishing in starvation, etc. My prayer is: "God grant us the grace to be willing to look at our infernal sins and weaknesses, and the grace not only to look at them but to turn from them." This bickering back and forth with the hateful expressions expressed toward one another really needs to give place to penitential tears of grief that we should so abuse one another who, if not now, might surely later, become our brother or sister in Christ.

I think Willingham's comment from SBC Voices is commendable, and noteworthy.

I think there is an appropriate response, I'm not sure I am up to it, not right now anyway but did want to give some of you a shot.

I can't get these fellows to read Charles Marsh on Schaeffer, Billy Graham and the Lausanne Covenant.

Willingham is a good fellow. Maybe all the virtue that can be applied is that of Marsh and his pilgrimmage with his Dad and his Dad's reluctance to look at sbc fundamentalism square in the face.

[TimR2]

"I do not find proofs that she rejected Crawford Toy in marriage because of theological liberalism,"

William; as I understand it your quote that I have quoted is from Mrs. Allen's article about to come out. I then followed your link to Dr. Kent's article concerning the Toy controversy. A very interesting read in that article. One thing about following such a scholar as Dr. Kent, is he meticulously notes his thoughts. When one goes to his footnotes it give some very interesting insight. Mrs. Allen seems to be in denial of her very own research. Dr. Kent notes a specific quote

"Toy's family understood that there was an engagement which was broken because of religious differences." (48)

Please notice that his footnote #48 is a reference to page 139 of Mrs. Allen's 1980 book The New Lottie Moon Story

Now, some may ask what were the "religious differences"? That is a fair question. One would have to decide that Dr. Toy had moved somewhat away from his religious convictions or had changed denominational affiliation all together. One cannot see that Dr. Toy had left the Baptist completely during this time so, the logical conclusion was that he strayed from his earlier understanding of Scripture

"that the Bible, its real assertations being known, is in every iota of its substance absolutely and infallibly true."

[Dave Roberts]

As I read Allen's article, it almost seemed that Crawford Toy was a footnote. Her real issues with Patterson hinged around first the acquisition of bits of the house and other items that may have been there when Lottie Moon was there. Her feeling was that it wouild have been far more appropriate to have left it with the church in China that is still functioning despite the years of Communist persecution and having survived China's Cultural Revolution. Her second issue was that the church is growing and reaching people under the leadership of a female pastor, a fact that Patterson never acknowledged, just as he never acknowledged that Lottie Moon functioned as its pastor and leader when she was alive. The question of why she did not marry Toy seemed peripheral to the whole article.

[Rock]

Dave,

I read it the same way. Toy is not the issue. The issue is Patterson's disregard for Miss Moon's legacy.

[William Thornton]

It was extraneous to her piece but it makes one wonder, if the denies what others accept, that Moon dropped Toy because of his views and I don't know any mod/libs who do not accept that, is she so biased that it undermines her other opinions. She wrote a book on Moon and is knowledgable about this. Why does she reject what other all accept? Because it doesn't fit her views or because of evidence she has?

[Stephen Fox]

Thornton, have you read EDSWinters blog on Lottie.

DR Brumbelow an outspoken SBC fundamentalist and Rock find some civil common ground there.

[Stephen Fox]

60 Stephen Fox March 5, 2010 at 1:47 pm
Why can’t David Brumbelow and Judge Pressler get the women at the WMU hdqrtrs who raise the money for the Lottie Moon Offering which is about the last thing holding the SBC together; why can’t th CR get the women to sign the BFM 2000?
I give you a hint; they don’t buy it; they don’t believe in a six day creation, that the Bible ever claimed to be a Science text book.
And if Lottie Moon were alive today, she wouldn’t sign it either. Catherine Allen is right about that.
I heard Cat Allen say in the flesh if Lottie were alive today,she would be appalled at what is done in her name.
I do hope Brumbelow will find a copy of the March issue of Baps Today soon and read Cat Allen’s filleting of Paige Patterson.
It is glorious

Reply

61 Joe Blackmon March 11, 2010 at 12:06 pm
I wish the SBC was structured so that anyone at the WMU who would not sign the BFM 2k would be given an opportunity to go work for the CBF. I’d love that to happen actually.

Reply

62 Tom Parker March 5, 2010 at 2:49 pm
Stephen:

I wonder out loud what would have happened to the SBC financially had it not been for women?

Above is how it has played out the last few days; active poster Joe Blackmon caling for a purge at the WMU.

[Dave Roberts]

It was extraneous to her piece but it makes one wonder, if the denies what others accept, that Moon dropped Toy because of his views and I don't know any mod/libs who do not accept that, is she so biased that it undermines her other opinions. She wrote a book on Moon and is knowledgable about this. Why does she reject what other all accept? Because it doesn't fit her views or because of evidence she has?

Actually, we probably will never know all the reasons for the end of their relationship. Matters of the heart are seldom matters of theology alone. I suspect that Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy may have had more than one possible issue, but then that's just my humble opinion that I highly respect after doing years of counseling. Seldom is life so simple as the assume it was all because of his theology. I would just suspect there was more, even to the heroine of foreign missions.

[Stephen Fox]

by Alice McDermott

Dave, you are own to something here though I come down that the difference on where Toy's conscience and intellect was taking him was the key. Even so there was the age difference, maybe a little too much of Robert E Lee provincialism left in Lottie that drove her to China; was a mindset that defined her character wherever she was.
That said, Toy's declaration that Charlotte Moon had the greatest command of the English Language of any female student he had encountered is pregnant for all kind of imaginations if their romance were to become the stuff of Historical Fiction.
Great line in Charming Billy; not a perfect fit for your musing but if I don't find it will give you a rough paraphrase soon.
Think you will like this critically acclaimed novelist and her novel set in 1940's.

[Ed Pettibone]

It was extraneous to her piece but it makes one wonder, if the denies what others accept, that Moon dropped Toy because of his views and I don't know any mod/libs who do not accept that, is she so biased that it undermines her other opinions. She wrote a book on Moon and is knowledgable about this. Why does she reject what other all accept? Because it doesn't fit her views or because of evidence she has?

Actually, we probably will never know all the reasons for the end of their relationship. Matters of the heart are seldom matters of theology alone. I suspect that Lottie Moon and Crawford Toy may have had more than one possible issue, but then that's just my humble opinion that I highly respect after doing years of counseling. Seldom is life so simple as the assume it was all because of his theology. I would just suspect there was more, even to the heroine of foreign missions.

Ed: Dave, you make a very good point as highlighted above.