Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

[Cathy]

I heard the above story from the living room radio when I was in the bedroom so will have to check it out online. Included Wade Burleson, Richard Land, Julie Pennington-Russell (hope I got that name right).

Found the link

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =106932178

[David Flick]

[linda]

Cathy--this is such a loaded topic that I hesitate to even login.

But here goes: frankly, Pastor Burleson and former Pres. Carter's opinions carry no more weight than any other Christian's.

I am no longer SBC or even Baptist, but that is more a matter of geography than anything else. The church I belong to does ordain women, but no church is forced to accept a woman as pastor. Each church can decide who to call.

I believe in the priesthood of the believer, so I wouldn't break fellowship with someone for being either egalitarian or complementarian.

I do believe the comps need to understand that it is possible to have a high view of scripture and believe scripture allows women ordination and teaches mutual submission in marriage.

And, conversely, I believe the egals need to understand it is possible to have a high view of scripture and believe it forbids women's ordination and teaches women to be submissive (not subordinate) in marriage.

What I deplore is the demonizing of those who honestly hold a different view. Women who are comps are now often told they are just in denial, or complicit in their own subjegation, or refusing adult status, or other such insults. Men who are comps are called male supremicists in the comment stream on Pastor Burleson's blog. Women who are egals are often seen as buying into the whole radical version of femininity (proabortion, prolesbian, etc), or considered manhaters. Men who are egals are often accused of paying no attention to scripture.

My take is this: let each be fully persuaded in their own mind, and act accordingly. If you are a woman who believes you are called to ordination, seek it. But instead of trying to force every convention or denomination to accept you, serve in one that already does. If you are a church member who believes the scripture forbids women's ordination, vote against it and if necessary vote with your feet.

But let's have an end to comments such as Pastor Burleson's comparing being strongly comp with slavery. The whole idea that unless a woman is just like a man excepting reproduction is far more "male supremacist" than is not ordaining women.

Let's understand that there really can be such a thing a separate but equal roles. Just look at the military: one colonel may be in charge of infantry, and another of artillary, but they are still colonels and still equal.

Once the issue of equallity is dealt with--that is, once we understand it isn't about who is superior and who is inferior, we can honestly tackle the job of searching the scripture to learn who is to do what.

My personal view? I believe there are some general guidelines. I believe within those general guidelines a man is to provide for his wife and children, and a wife is to take care of the home and family. (I know that offends some, but Titus 2:5 is still in my Bible.) Those are GENERAL guidelines, however. In the case of death, disability, job layoff, etc, exceptions must be made. Because of those guidelines, I believe most women have more important things to do than to pastor a church. Some women are single, or widowed, etc, and therefore do not have those general responsibilities. I believe fully God can call whomever He wishes to the ministry, and have lived in places where no man would accept a call to pastor. Should we have called a woman? Or should we have done without? Were we in that pickle because a man said no to God? I don't have the answers.

I do know that not every man who believes he is called to the pastorate should be ordained. Some just don't meet scriptural qualifications. Women will have to get used to the same idea--that just because you believe you are called doesn't necessarily mean you are.

And somehow we have to find a middle ground. Pastor Burleson has suggested on his blog that not ordaining women was a culturally driven construct. I agree. I would also add that the current idea of ordaining women is also a culturally driven construct.

I believe we need to honestly seek the truth as taught in scripture, not the truth we want to find.

And that truth will probably upset men, women, egals, and comps.

[Tim Dahl]

I believe that our current theological construct of Ordination is a hold over from the Catholic Church. It is there to signify those in power, period. This gives one power to do certain things that others can't (ordinances anyone?). I believe this goes against what Scripture teaches. Instead, we are modeling Church, Pastors, Ministers, Laity, Clergy, whatever on a worldly model and not Christ centered.

Seriously, if it wasn't functionally necessary to have ordination within Texas Baptist circles, I wouldn't have it.

However, since it is functionally necessary for one to be a pastor of our more established churches, I believe that women are able to be ordained just as men. The Pastorate isn't supposed to be about "who has power over who," it is supposed to be about how the Pastor is blessed to be used of God to serve God's congregation.

I bet if the Pastorate became more of a servant's position, we would see a lot less men going there...

Oh wait, it already is! Fewer and fewer guys are going into the Pastorate. I wonder if that coincides with our societies disdain for the position, coupled with the dwindling power of the institutional church in America? I bet it is.

I wonder if anyone has done any research on it. I'll do some google searches and see what come up.

Tim

[Wade Burleson]

[linda]

Pastor Burleson--your reply can only be that of a Christian and a gentleman!

Yes, I think I am learning some balance in the church I attend now (a Church of the Nazarene). Not everyone sees everything eye to eye, but there is great trust that each is actively seeking the mind of the Lord.

And yes, I totally agree that we are in a conservative vs conservative debate rather than conservative vs liberal.

I so long for the SBC I grew up with. There, each could voice their understanding without rebuke or censure even when the next to share spoke the exact opposite. We trusted our Bibles and trusted in the illumination of the Holy Spirit.

I believe the far bigger issue than women's ordination is this: have we completely distrusted the Holy Spirit? Do Southern Baptists no longer believe in soul competency?

I would sure like to see you tackle that issue more often on your blog, as I personally believe that is the root of many of these firefights.

Again, peace, and thanks for your reply!

[Big Daddy Weaver]

50 years is a long long time from now.

But, I'm pretty confident that the pro-women pastors movement isn't exactly a growing constituency among active Southern Baptists - meaning the Southern Baptists that both to show up to the Annual Meeting every summer. Wade - who has described himself as a "cultural complimentarian" whatever that means - is to the lonely left of these Southern Baptists on the issue of women in ministry.

I know a few *younger* Southern Baptists (i.e. a handful of years older than me but probably 4-5 handful of years younger than most here at BL.com) who would share my observation. Like it or not, complimentarianism is the official dogma of the Southern Baptist Convention. While not everyone in the SBC is on board with the increasingly popular Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood form of complimentarianism that is coming out of SBTS, the softer form of complimentarianism embraced by many Southern Baptists is a long long long way from an egaliatarianism that would allow for women to serve as senior pastors. Complimentarianism in generally is widely accepted by the younger generations of Southern Baptists. Don't look for these younger Southern Baptists to do a 180 on gender roles anytime in the near future...

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[Chris]

[David Flick]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Steve Wilcox]

[linda]

Thanks for the encouragement!

When I long for the SBC of the 1960's and 1970's as I experienced it in my neck of the woods, that was the key--soul competency.

We could and did debate and do so vigorously--but it wasn't until the 1990's that I started hearing Baptists seriously call other Baptists heretic over any issues save the deity of Christ, virgin birth, etc.

Arminians and Cals, free gracers and Lordship salvationers, comps and egals, etc, all met under the big tent of salvation through faith in Jesus without resort to human mediator, and a belief in once saved always saved.

Now we can't even agree on the music, let alone doctrine or theology.

[JaneFordA]

Why is this happening? I thought that once the "Resurgence" got rid of heretics and horrible people like me, the SBC was destined to become heaven on earth--without the undesirables, you know.

[Dave Roberts]

[Sandy]

[Mark]

[Sandy]

[Neil Heath]

Regarding ordination, I don't see the need for it or the scriptural basis for it. I'm glad my church uses both clergy and laity in serving the Lord's Supper. Twice this summer the Sunday morning service was led by one of our mission teams so they could report on their recent trip. One was adults and youth, the other was the summer youth trip. In both cases the mission team led us in communion as a part of the service and no one batted an eye. It's not a minister-only thing. Neither is baptism in my book.

If done, I think ordination should be initiated by the church, not by the minister-to-be. If the church recognizes one's gifts and ordains that person because they feel the leadership of the Spirit to do so, that's the best approach. And if the minister has to ask for it, perhaps the church has not seen it for themselves. I was never ordained because I waited for the church to ask me ... they were right.

On the women minister issue, perhaps they don't push harder for it because they know the one who leads is not necessarily the one in charge. Why give up their power just to be put in charge, when they are already calling the shots without even being elected deacon?

[Sandy]

I think most Southern Baptist pastors are well aware of the fact that without the women members of their church stepping up to their calling, not much would happen in their church.

[JaneFordA]

[William Thornton]

[Neil Heath]