Wedding vows

[Chris]

In Kate Middleton's wedding vows, the word "obey" was missing. Before the late 60s, all the weddings I attended would have the minister "dictating" the vows to the bride and groom. Around that time, it became acceptable for the bride and groom to write their OWN vows -- even memorize them, which left the minister out of the equation.
This leaves me wondering about churches that subscribe to
the BF&M 2000. Does the minister REQUIRE that the bride say "obey?" Or is it OK for a bride in such a church to leave out "obey?"

[William Thornton]

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

I don't find many brides wanting to write their own vows and some time back I stopped asking if they wanted to. I have generally provided some options of particular wedding liturgies that I am comfortable with. But if people are wanting to do something non-Christian then they can go talk to someone else. I learned a long time ago that you don't give people options you don't want them to pick.

I usual say in the rehearsal that we will conduct the wedding as planned by the Bride and Groom and if someone wants something different they have to talk to the Bride and Groom first.

I have tended to find weddings, particularly of non-members, to often be difficult experiences. Often they want a wedding in the church for the pictures and don't get it.

[johnfariss]

Like some of you, I give options. I tell the prospective bride and groom they can recite the vows, I can say them and they respond with "I do," or they can write their own (I don't recall anyone doing that since 1986), and that there is very little in the ceremony that is "written in stone," including the wording of the vows. As to pushy relatives, friends, and "consultants," I tell the bride and groom that since most of what is in the service is negotiable, if it is an idea they like, talk to me about it and probably we can work it in. If, however, it is something they don't like, tell the pusher, "Gee that sounds nice but I don't know, I'll have to ask the preacher," and I have no problem whatsoever being the bad guy and saying "No!" It takes the pressure off the bride (maybe the groom, but in my experience it usually goes to the bride, while the groom remains a marginally interested observer), I have developed a pretty thick skin over the years, and the pushy folks tend (at least in my experience) not to be members of the church I pastor, if Christians at all.

John

[Tim Dahl]

I give people the option of writing their own vows, but I've never had anyone do it. Usually, I give them a list to choose from; the traditional and a couple of modern; and it is amazing how they tend to pick the traditional. Now, to be sure the traditional one I use omits the "obey" out of it; which I didn't notice until after the first wedding. I've never had anyone ask for the "obey" to be put back in it.

I have found that people tend to be pushy when it seems the bride doesn't know an answer to a question. The see an opening and BAM(!) they are the wedding coordinator. Now I ask the bride, "If there ever comes a time when you can't decide on something; who should I ask?" They then pick their mom, maid of honor, second cousin twice removed, or someone and the issue is resolved. They tell the person, with me present, that they are the "go to" person if the bride gets a brain cramp. It has been beautiful thus far.

There has only been once when I looked at the bride (her mother, her sister, and some other lady all pushing for prominence) when I asked her if there was someone else she would like to preach her wedding. It was only once, and it was a family (my family) affair. They backed off after that.

I don't put very many limitations on the families though. I see the wedding as an intro to ministry of sorts. If I don't do their wedding then they will probably go to the JP. However, when things are falling about about 2 years later, they aren't going to feel like they have anyone to go to...especially me if I refused to do their wedding in the first place. Instead, I try to use 8 weeks of premarital counseling, and the experience of the service, to build a relationship with them. Then, if things end up going terribly wrong in the future they know that they have at least one person to come to.

Tim

[Tim Bonney]

What restrictions I have has a lot to do with if it is in the church building or not. If the wedding is in the building then they can't rearrange the sanctuary to suit themselves. It is a church and needs to stay looking like a church. So the cross doesn't get moved off of the altar. No you can't move the baptismal font off the chancel (not a problem for you all with baptistries I realize). No you can't take the picture of Jesus off the wall and put up a picture of the couple. (Yep, I was asked that.) No I won't do a wedding without mention God. (Been asked that too!) If you don't want something that looks "churchy" then don't get married in a church.

I think each pastor has to decide what her or his non-negotiables are and stick to you guns. Sure the couple may move their wedding to another church. But I'd rather see than happen than compromise my beliefs to make people happy.

[Tim Bonney]

What has been your experience with outside pastors having a wedding in your church? I've mostly had bad luck with it. We get a couple who goes to a church that is one of the new vinyard or community churches in a metal pole barn. And they want to get married in a "real church" whatever that means. But then they want to bring their own pastor.

I let that happen about twice and discovered that the guest pastor was preaching things totally opposed to what my church teaches and I put a stop to guest pastors unless I'm the main officient and I have control over the service.

[Chris]

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Now this thing really gets ticklish. How does a pastor who often is the newest party in a church dictate who's wedding may be held the meeting place? I am of the opinion like Tim that a pastor is responsible to God as to, for whom, they will do a wedding ceremony. Trudy has made it clear to pulpit committees that she reserves the right to determine if she can in good faith perform weddings, on a case by case basis . But for Baptist the building (Generally) is not the Pastors or the denominations. I much prefer letting the building usage up to the trustees in accord with a use plan, that has been pre - approved by the congregation.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

We had our wedding at Truett chapel for a reason - at the time we were looking for a new church (didn't want to join the church where both sets of parents are members) and we didn't want to deal with restrictions or any issues related to participants in the ceremony.

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

The ticklish subject of ministerial ethics among Baptists is difficult. Some churches I have served left choosing who could get married in the church up to me. In my last congregation, they had a Wedding Committee who made decisions from the church side and then I had to choose whether I was comfortable participating. It may solve a church problem, but then it puts the minister on a hotter seat because you may not agree with a committee decision. It's a seedbed for conflict.

[Jerry_B]

Well I guess I am in the minority here. I don't care if someone else wants to do the wedding, have at it. Short of bringing in someone non Christian, I have no problems. Weddings are for me, not the most enjoyable part of the job.

On the obey question. I stopped including that phrase years ago. Also, I don't ask if anyone has reason why these two can't be married. By the time we actually get to the wedding I have counseled with the couple and know them pretty well even to the point of asking living together folks to knock off the hanky-panky until the wedding night.

Heard an old-timey Baptist preacher once say "If it weren't for the fact that somebody had to go in the ground, I would do five funerals to one wedding."

[Ed Pettibone]

[johnfariss]

In my earlier reply, I was at home and all my material for weddings was at the church. Having now ckecked, I find that I do not, and don't believe I ever have, included "obey" as part of the declaration of intent or of the vows themselves. Inthe declaration of intent, I ask each if they will "live together in the covenant of faith, hope, and love, and listen to his/her innermost thoughts, be considerate and tender in your care for him/her, stand by him/her faithfully in sickness and in health, and, preferring him/her above all others, accept full responsibility for his/her every necessity as long as you both shall live." Then the vows are "to have and hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, till in death you do part," with minor grammitical changes depending on whetehr they repeat the vow or simply answer "I do." I have never included the part about if there is any objection.

Even in the dysfunctional churches I have served, there has never been any formal constraint placed on me by the church about who I should marry or could refuse to marry, though there has occasionally been informal pressure. Even with all the baggage a wedding carries, I prefer them to funerals--though had I been able to pick out the "guest of honor" for some funerals, that might have changed my outlook.

I have, however, been very wary of allowing other ministers whom I did not know to come in and officiate at weddings, especially non-denominational ones, as their theology can be all over the place. The church I now serve had a bad experience there: in the interim before I came, they agreed to virtually all requests from outside. I stopped that when I came here. Then I had a call a few years ago--it seems a couple got married here, and later saw that the "minister" who did the wedding had been found guilty of fraud. Turns out their "ordination" was from the "Universal Life Church" at which one gets ordained by "pushing" a button on the "church's" website. I checked with the state Attorney-General's office, who told me they do not check credentials, and accept the word of whatever "minister" says they are properly credentialed to preform services, so the marriage was legal and binding regardless. It made me kind of long for Virginia, where a minister has to register with the Clerk of the Court by showing licensing and ordination certificates in order to preform weddings.

John

[Tim Bonney]

[William Thornton]