Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:27 pm

Timothy, I too had never heard those terms together - "storehouse tithing" until just recently.

I did a search of the WorldCat database which is the most comprehensive database out there (that I'm aware of). It turned up 13 books related to "storehouse tithing" Most of the titles were published in the 1950s and 1960s by publishers like Sword of the Lord and Nazarene Publications.

According to a book published by respected sociologists Christian Smith and Michael Emerson, The Wesleyan Church uses the phrase "storehouse tithing" in their official document describing Wesleyan beliefs related to financial giving.
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Mark » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:35 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:Maybe ya'll can help me. Can you remember the first time you heard the term "Storehouse Tithing" ? I can tell you. It was this week. This isn't a term used in the ABC... How does a term that apparently is an SBC term (or maybe a Conservative Christian/Baptist term) become a necessary doctrine? Frankly it seems bizarre....

BDiddy wrote:Timothy, I too had never heard those terms together - "storehouse tithing" until just recently...

Gosh, I've heard the phrase "storehouse tither" used by older church folks all my life. Not sure if it's unique to Baptists. Guess it's just an oldtime southern phrase. In his testimony, I remember hearing the late Baptist comedian Jerry Clower speak of being taught by his mother to be a "storehouse tither."

BDiddy, ask your dad (if you haven't done so already) if he ever heard that phrase while growing up. I'll be surprised if he didn't.



BDiddy wrote:I did a search of the WorldCat database...It turned up 13 books related to "storehouse tithing". Most of the titles were published in the 1950s and 1960s by publishers like Sword of the Lord...

Okay, that helps explain how the phrase became entrenched within several generations of older Southern Baptists. John R. Rice, longtime publisher of Sword of the Lord, became an Independent Baptist in the 1950s, but continued to have a HUGE influence on Southern Baptist preachers for decades, long before Jerry Falwell et. al. My parents received Sword of the Lord for years without a subscription. In fact, I think Rice continued to have it mailed to every Southern Baptist church long after he became an Independent Fundamentalist.
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby David Flick » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:38 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:Maybe ya'll can help me. Can you remember the first time you heard the term "Storehouse Tithing" ? I can tell you. It was this week. This isn't a term used in the ABC and I don't remember ever hearing it used though I have taught the value of tithing for years.

How does a term that apparently is an SBC term (or maybe a Conservative Christian/Baptist term) become a necessary doctrine? Frankly it seems bizarre to me.

Tim, in my neck of the woods (among fundamentalist-leaning Oklahoma Southern Baptists), "storehouse tithing" was frequently preached when I was a child (was born in 1941). My childhood pastor, Rev. Cleo Martin, was a strong proponent of storehouse tithing. When I entered college in the Fall of 1959, I became active in the BSU. The BSU president, a ministerial student, gave a subscription of John R. Rice's publication, Sword of the Lord, to every member of the BSU. The publication featured a sermon on the front page of every issue. Jack Hyles & Jerry Falwell were two of the most frequent contributors of front page sermons. Many of those sermons were about storehouse tithing. I entered ministry in 1964 and preached a few storehouse sermons myself. I'm not a proponent of the doctrine, but share this to say that I am very familiar with the term and have been for as long as I can remember.
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby David Flick » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:51 am

Mark wrote:
BDiddy wrote:I did a search of the WorldCat database...It turned up 13 books related to "storehouse tithing". Most of the titles were published in the 1950s and 1960s by publishers like Sword of the Lord...

Okay, that helps explain how the phrase became entrenched within several generations of older Southern Baptists. John R. Rice, longtime publisher of Sword of the Lord, became an Independent Baptist in the 1950s, but continued to have a HUGE influence on Southern Baptist preachers for decades, long before Jerry Falwell et. al. My parents received Sword of the Lord for years without a subscription. In fact, I think Rice continued to have it mailed to every Southern Baptist church long after he became an Independent Fundamentalist.

Mark, I'm probably a contemporary of your father and, like him, I read Sword of the Lord for years, even after I became a pastor in 1964. I confess to having used some of those front page sermons as material for my own preaching, occasionally preaching them almost verbatim. In the early 70's, I swore off the publication because of Rice's hatred of Southern Baptists. I continued reading it for years simply to keep up with what he was saying about SBs. But, like you, I have been familiar with the term (doctrine) "storehouse tithing" for a long as I can remember.
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby David Flick » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:54 am

.
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To me, this is an exceedingly interesting thread. Count me as one agreeing with my cross town neighbor and fellow Oklahoman, Wade Burleson.
.
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:12 am

In the Broadman and Modern Hymnals was this hymn titled "Trust, Try, and Prove Me."

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse,
All your money, talents, time and love;
Consecrate them all upon the altar;
While your Saviour from above speaks sweetly.

Trust Me, try Me, prove Me, saith the Lord of hosts and see
If a blessing, unmeasured blessing,
I will not pour out on thee.
(Copyright 1928 by Charles Gabriel)

That may be the most used stewardship hymn in the South in the 1930's through the 1950's.
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Ed Pettibone » Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:16 am

Ed: I am agast to hear that neither TIm Bonney nor Aaron Weaver have read Malachi 3:10. :wink:

But on the other hand, I was born into and raised (until 19) in the Nazarene denomination. Storehouse tithing was just one of the teachings of that sect that I had problems with. It does seem a bit strange to me that so many "New Testament" Baptist are so quick to insist on an OT based practice.

But yet, as I said the other day in another thread, Trudy and I do tithe through our church (ABC-USA) and give to other Christian causes above that; Ie: the distinction between tithes and offerings.

And of course it was be pretty as a CBFer in SBC churchs to advocate the practice of storehouse tithing. :)

To sum up I am comfortable with storehouse tithing , as long as I have confidence in the storehouse managers.
Last edited by Ed Pettibone on Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby peter_lumpkins » Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:38 am

Dear Wade,

:? Sorry. I speak only one language--West Georgia Redneckese. Therefore, I haven't a clue what you just wrote. I did pick-up a tinge of self-perceived, messianic drawl in it though.

Mr Parker,

Your comment clearly demonstrates the depth of your ignorance concerning Les and my relationship. I suggest you stick to commenting on things concerning which you have something sane to say. :thumb:

With that, I am...
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Mark » Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:17 am

David Flick wrote:To me, this is an exceedingly interesting thread. Count me as one agreeing with my cross town neighbor and fellow Oklahoman, Wade Burleson...

Me, too, David. Does that mean we're now engaging in "hero worship?" :)

Mark (whose hero list likewise includes BDiddy, despite our differing perspectives on Wade Burleson but otherwise in agreement 99% of the time)
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Wade Burleson » Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:17 am

peter_lumpkins wrote:Dear Wade,

I haven't a clue what you just wrote. I did pick-up a tinge of self-perceived, messianic drawl in it though.



Nah, Peter, no self-perception at all. Just a genuine concern to protect peoples lives and livelihood from ideologues like you. :wink:
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:37 am

Mark,

Does your agreement mean that you affirm the practice of publishing private e-mails? That is, after all, one of two issues being discussed here.

I don't have some monolithic perspective on Wade Burleson. I largely agree with what he has written against Les' fundamentalism. I just don't agree with the tactic in this instance. Considering your response to Foxy in the past when he's invoked your last name, I'm sure you also share privacy concerns, probably at a greater level than I do. We shouldn't use a person's private e-mail in this manner, right?
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Mark » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:44 am

Dave Roberts wrote:In the Broadman and Modern Hymnals was this hymn titled "Trust, Try, and Prove Me."
That may be the most used stewardship hymn in the South in the 1930's through the 1950's...

Haven't thought of that song in years, Dave. (Actually, I don't remember ever hearing it at all until I was grown.) I just mentioned it to my mom who, having grown up with the Broadman and Modern Hymnals, proceeded to sing a verse from memory. I told her she must have had too much caffeine this morning.
:angel:

Several years ago, we dragged out another old song, "Our Best", from The Modern Hymnal during a church anniversary program I helped plan. I've always liked it. (Sorry about the thread drift, but it's actually another very good example of a hymn that talks about faithful stewardship.)
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:47 am

Mark wrote:

BDiddy wrote:I did a search of the WorldCat database...It turned up 13 books related to "storehouse tithing". Most of the titles were published in the 1950s and 1960s by publishers like Sword of the Lord...

Okay, that helps explain how the phrase became entrenched within several generations of older Southern Baptists. John R. Rice, longtime publisher of Sword of the Lord, became an Independent Baptist in the 1950s, but continued to have a HUGE influence on Southern Baptist preachers for decades, long before Jerry Falwell et. al. My parents received Sword of the Lord for years without a subscription. In fact, I think Rice continued to have it mailed to every Southern Baptist church long after he became an Independent Fundamentalist.


Debbie Kaufman has just posted a link to this sermon by John Rice titled Storehouse Tithing. . . A New Heresy by Selfish Preachers
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Mark » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:00 pm

Big Daddy Weaver wrote:Mark, Does your agreement mean that you affirm the practice of publishing private e-mails? ...

As a general rule, no, in most cases I don't think it's a good thing to do, and I may (or may not) have handled it differently than Wade B did. Should there be an exception when there's a secret letter-writing (or e-mail writing) campaign going on that could ruin someone's reputation or career? In that case - and having been on the receiving end of a similar thing one time - perhaps it's sometimes warranted to make others aware.

Would folks such as your dad and the two SEBTS professors not preferred that their critic(s) talk to them first about their concerns, rather than engaging in a smarmy, cowardly effort to secretly go over their heads? I suspect so. Admittedly, I'm biased.
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:39 pm

Mark wrote:
Big Daddy Weaver wrote:Mark, Does your agreement mean that you affirm the practice of publishing private e-mails? ...

As a general rule, no, in most cases I don't think it's a good thing to do, and I may (or may not) have handled it differently than Wade B did. Should there be an exception when there's a secret letter-writing (or e-mail writing) campaign going on that could ruin someone's reputation or career? In that case - and having been on the receiving end of a similar thing one time - perhaps it's sometimes warranted to make others aware.

Would folks such as your dad and the two SEBTS professors not preferred that their critic(s) talk to them first about their concerns, rather than engaging in a smarmy, cowardly effort to secretly go over their heads? I suspect so. Admittedly, I'm biased.


I'm with you in an instance when a coordinated "letter-writing campaign" is being waged. I don't think we have a campaign here.

I've got a few dollars that says Danny Akin gets similar e-mails and phone calls regarding folks on faculty each month, if not each week. It sounds like he handled Les well. Good Administrators protect their Faculty. Professors shouldn't have to deal with that kind of stuff. And it's probably best that they don't have to deal with cranky parents whose kids misinterpret what a professor says in class or a pastor who gets riled up over everything and anything that isn't compatible with his narrow theology. Even if a professor wanted to deal directly with their critic, it's likely not going to happen. People who call in to complain about what is being taught at a particular school typically have no interest in dealing with the accused prof directly. Some might; most don't.
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Sat Feb 13, 2010 12:43 pm

All this drama surrounding Les Puryear brings attention to another important issue - the increasingly tense relationship between Southern Baptists and Academic Freedom - a freedom which is already extremely limited in SBC life and apparently folks like Les would like to suppress that freedom to a greater extent...
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Mark » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:05 pm

Big Daddy Weaver wrote:Good Administrators protect their Faculty. Professors shouldn't have to deal with that kind of stuff. And it's probably best that they don't have to deal with cranky parents whose kids misinterpret what a professor says in class or a pastor who gets riled up over everything and anything that isn't compatible with his narrow theology. Even if a professor wanted to deal directly with their critic, it's likely not going to happen. People who call in to complain about what is being taught at a particular school typically have no interest in dealing with the accused prof directly. Some might; most don't...

I hear what you're saying. I do realize Baptist colleges get this kind of stuff all the time, and that in many if not most cases professors are glad for their bosses to run interference. I viewed the situation with Les Puryear a little differently in that he has perhaps been a more visible person of influence within the SBC, and if he were making accusations to others about me as a teacher, I'd want to know. Plus I think it's more biblical to first take one's concerns directly to the person involved when possible.

I might have reacted differently if Les had merely raised a concern, but to me he's very clearly saying these professors should not be employed at SEBTS.
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby William Thornton » Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:56 pm

In my experience "storehouse tithing" has always been used as an allegedly biblical bludgeon with which to pummel church members into giving the full tithe to their local church, and not anything else.

Maybe Stetzer should do a survey. I'm guessing that a minority of Baptists (though perhas a majority of pastors, who know self-interest when they see it) believe in storehouse tithing.
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby William Thornton » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:10 pm

Here's a good reason that Les' complaint about his private email being made public rings hollow and looks like a red herring:

His words from his own blog (as compiled by WB here in his 'victory lap' :wink: blog post):

... "I am shocked by the prevalance of antinomianism in our convention!"
... "Andreas Kostenberger and David Croteau document does need to be addressed. I will say that I have somewhat shocked that professors at SEBTS and Liberty University would advise our churches not to teach tithing."
...."If (someone) goes beyond the boundaries of his local church and seeks to persuade others (that tithing is not biblical), that's when a response is warranted. Thank you for bringing this issue to my attention. You can rest assured that action is underway to address these issues at every level of the SBC."

He publicly targeted these two guys on his blog and then carried that out in his email that was made public. Les has tried to spin his email, and several bloggers have helped him try to do so, by insisting that he wasn't questioning these guys' jobs. I would merely quote him again. You decide for yourself:

I am completely shocked and surprised that a Southern Baptist seminary in the years following the Conservative Resurgence would employ a professor who teaches that tithing is not necessary.

Do you agree with Dr. Kostenberger's position of tithing? If not, do you think it is helpful to the SBC to keep this professor on the faculty of SEBTS?


One notes that not one but two references are made to the prof's employment. This isn't an email that seeks merely to clarify or even to respond with an alternative view. This is one pastor, one who seeks to be a leader in the SBC, playing hardball by calling into question another man's job in the employ of Southern Baptists. Les has hundreds, maybe thousands, of blog posts. He knows how to use the english language.

BTW, Les says private emails to him are running 50 to 1 in his favor, which makes one wonder why he shut down public comments on his blog. Maybe he oughta run for SBC president again.
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Re: Should SBC profs be fired for not teaching strhse tithing?

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:39 pm

I have always loved the story about Dr. Henlee Barnette at SBTS. A pastor in the South wrote the Dr. Duke McCall, SBTS President, warning him that if he didn't fire Dr. Barnette for his stands on race, their church would not be sending any more money to SBTS. Dr. Barnette did some research on the giving of the church, computed what they had given to the CP through their state convention, took the percentage that reached the SBC, then took the percentage again of what SBTS received, and sent the pastor back all of their contributions from the previous year that came to the seminary. He always relished telling that he gathered the total and put it in the envelope and sent it. The total was $0.31.
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Ed Wallen checks in

Postby Stephen Fox » Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:07 pm

Mr. Fox has been around a long time, and thinks he is a sledge-hammer to doctrinal purity when in fact he is nothing more than a splinter seeking to irritate those who are hermeneutically sound.

Ed Wallen


I shared Wade Burleson's thoughts above about the IMB missionaries and Sherrie Klouda in a reply to a group (20 or so) email that came to me. Norman Jameson of the NC Biblical Recorder was in the loop.
All I sent was a copy of Wade's illustrious post above, and Wallen dismisses me out of hand with the above ad hominem.

I think Mark knows Wallen, Valleydale Baptist off 65 in Shelby County, right Mark? I think he is a former IMB trustee or some high person with the fundamentalist takeover, maybe Mark can give the particulars.

I take it Wallen lumps me in there with Wade; any unauthorized thought wherever it comes from off the reservation, even from a signer of the Memphis Declaration with Adrian Rogers son David; anybody who dare cross them is an "irritant to the hermeneutically sound."


I saw where Wade B in this thread gave a wink to Lumpkins so here is my :wink: :wink: :wink: to Ed Wallen again cribbing off the Memphis Declaration signer Wade who has been so eloquent in the guts of this matter so far.
Wade quoting Lumpkins:

by Wade Burleson » Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:17 am

peter_lumpkins wrote:
Dear Wade,

I haven't a clue what you just wrote. I did pick-up a tinge of self-perceived, messianic drawl in it though.



Nah, Peter, no self-perception at all. Just a genuine concern to protect peoples lives and livelihood from ideologues like you. The world is too dangerous to live in - not because of the people who do evil but because of the people who sit and let it happen.


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Re: Ed Wallen checks in

Postby Mark » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:25 pm

Stephen Fox wrote:I think Mark knows Wallen, Valleydale Baptist off 65 in Shelby County, right Mark? I think he is a former IMB trustee or some high person with the fundamentalist takeover..

Best I can recall, I think Ed Wallen is the same person as "E. P. Wallen" and yes, he was a Fundamentalist bigwig in Alabama back in the late 1980s or early 1990s. Haven't heard or thought of his name in years, nor do I know him personally. Seems as though he was once pastor of a church over your way, Fox.... in the Gadsden area, perhaps? Or maybe Birmingham. Don't know of any connection with Valleydale Baptist, although that may be where he is a member today. Surely he's retired by now. Seems as though I also remember him being a big critic of Samford after it hired Dr. Corts as president, or maybe also when they hired Dr. Wm Hull.
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Palinesque??/Ain't Wade's First Rodeo

Postby Stephen Fox » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:48 pm

More you explore Chadwick Ivester, Rodeo is a multilayerd Pun

http://chadwickivester.com/2008/02/04/f ... son-story/

Well the fundies ain't all dour, now are they; you see where Puryear was the first to comment on this blog
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