Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Discuss current news and trends taking place in the Southern Baptist Convention.

Moderator: William Thornton

Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Cathy » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:13 am

I heard the above story from the living room radio when I was in the bedroom so will have to check it out online. Included Wade Burleson, Richard Land, Julie Pennington-Russell (hope I got that name right).

Found the link

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =106932178
Cathy
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:10 am

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby David Flick » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:07 am

Cathy wrote:I heard the above story from the living room radio when I was in the bedroom so will have to check it out online. Included Wade Burleson, Richard Land, Julie Pennington-Russell (hope I got that name right).

Found the link

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =106932178

Cathy, the SBC old heads such as Land, Patterson, et. al. are blind to a fault on this issue. I'm not prone to wager* but if I were, I'd put the same money on the table that Wade is right. Until the last decade of my 40-year ministry among Southern Baptists, I was right where the old heads were on ordination of women and women pastor's. I realized I was wrong on the issue when my daughter was elected to become a deacon in a CBF church in Denton, Tx. (Written 8 years ago and not very well articulated, here's the story).

After I changed demominations I discovered that American Baptists have accepted women pastors for more than a century. Wade's right. The day will come --after this generation of leaders moves on to heaven-- when women pastors are common in the SBC.

Incidentally, one of the finest women preachers I know is Rev. Kathy Longhat (Cherokee/Kiowa), pastor of the historic Rainy Mountain Kiowa Indian Baptist Church near Hobart, OK. Kathy is going to lead a workshop on Thursday afternoon at the NBC celebration in Norman on August 6th.
____________________________________


*I wager publicly only with William and only once a year. I wager that my OK State Cowboys can beat his Georgia Bulldogs in football. And our bets are honey and onions... :wink:
User avatar
David Flick
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8490
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:55 pm
Location: Oklahoma City, OK

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby linda » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:28 am

Cathy--this is such a loaded topic that I hesitate to even login.

But here goes: frankly, Pastor Burleson and former Pres. Carter's opinions carry no more weight than any other Christian's.

I am no longer SBC or even Baptist, but that is more a matter of geography than anything else. The church I belong to does ordain women, but no church is forced to accept a woman as pastor. Each church can decide who to call.

I believe in the priesthood of the believer, so I wouldn't break fellowship with someone for being either egalitarian or complementarian.

I do believe the comps need to understand that it is possible to have a high view of scripture and believe scripture allows women ordination and teaches mutual submission in marriage.

And, conversely, I believe the egals need to understand it is possible to have a high view of scripture and believe it forbids women's ordination and teaches women to be submissive (not subordinate) in marriage.

What I deplore is the demonizing of those who honestly hold a different view. Women who are comps are now often told they are just in denial, or complicit in their own subjegation, or refusing adult status, or other such insults. Men who are comps are called male supremicists in the comment stream on Pastor Burleson's blog. Women who are egals are often seen as buying into the whole radical version of femininity (proabortion, prolesbian, etc), or considered manhaters. Men who are egals are often accused of paying no attention to scripture.

My take is this: let each be fully persuaded in their own mind, and act accordingly. If you are a woman who believes you are called to ordination, seek it. But instead of trying to force every convention or denomination to accept you, serve in one that already does. If you are a church member who believes the scripture forbids women's ordination, vote against it and if necessary vote with your feet.

But let's have an end to comments such as Pastor Burleson's comparing being strongly comp with slavery. The whole idea that unless a woman is just like a man excepting reproduction is far more "male supremacist" than is not ordaining women.

Let's understand that there really can be such a thing a separate but equal roles. Just look at the military: one colonel may be in charge of infantry, and another of artillary, but they are still colonels and still equal.

Once the issue of equallity is dealt with--that is, once we understand it isn't about who is superior and who is inferior, we can honestly tackle the job of searching the scripture to learn who is to do what.

My personal view? I believe there are some general guidelines. I believe within those general guidelines a man is to provide for his wife and children, and a wife is to take care of the home and family. (I know that offends some, but Titus 2:5 is still in my Bible.) Those are GENERAL guidelines, however. In the case of death, disability, job layoff, etc, exceptions must be made. Because of those guidelines, I believe most women have more important things to do than to pastor a church. Some women are single, or widowed, etc, and therefore do not have those general responsibilities. I believe fully God can call whomever He wishes to the ministry, and have lived in places where no man would accept a call to pastor. Should we have called a woman? Or should we have done without? Were we in that pickle because a man said no to God? I don't have the answers.

I do know that not every man who believes he is called to the pastorate should be ordained. Some just don't meet scriptural qualifications. Women will have to get used to the same idea--that just because you believe you are called doesn't necessarily mean you are.

And somehow we have to find a middle ground. Pastor Burleson has suggested on his blog that not ordaining women was a culturally driven construct. I agree. I would also add that the current idea of ordaining women is also a culturally driven construct.

I believe we need to honestly seek the truth as taught in scripture, not the truth we want to find.

And that truth will probably upset men, women, egals, and comps.
Linda
linda
 
Posts: 447
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:53 pm

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Tim Dahl » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:49 am

I believe that our current theological construct of Ordination is a hold over from the Catholic Church. It is there to signify those in power, period. This gives one power to do certain things that others can't (ordinances anyone?). I believe this goes against what Scripture teaches. Instead, we are modeling Church, Pastors, Ministers, Laity, Clergy, whatever on a worldly model and not Christ centered.

Seriously, if it wasn't functionally necessary to have ordination within Texas Baptist circles, I wouldn't have it.

However, since it is functionally necessary for one to be a pastor of our more established churches, I believe that women are able to be ordained just as men. The Pastorate isn't supposed to be about "who has power over who," it is supposed to be about how the Pastor is blessed to be used of God to serve God's congregation.

I bet if the Pastorate became more of a servant's position, we would see a lot less men going there...

Oh wait, it already is! Fewer and fewer guys are going into the Pastorate. I wonder if that coincides with our societies disdain for the position, coupled with the dwindling power of the institutional church in America? I bet it is.

I wonder if anyone has done any research on it. I'll do some google searches and see what come up.

Tim
Tim L. Dahl
Using my full name since the warning of Banishment... ;)
"Tike's Best Friend"
User avatar
Tim Dahl
 
Posts: 981
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:45 pm
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Wade Burleson » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:08 pm

linda wrote:But let's have an end to comments such as Pastor Burleson's comparing being strongly comp with slavery. The whole idea that unless a woman is just like a man excepting reproduction is far more "male supremacist" than is not ordaining women.


You may be surprised that I agree.

I find that one of my weaknesses, as one who often feels led to protect the unprotected, is to hit too hard in push back.

You must understand that many people in the Southern Baptist Convention (not all) who make known their opinion known regarding "women in ministry" do not take the approach that you do. I find your views on women quite balanced and reserved, remaining open to differing interpretations of the sacred text on this issue. It would be very convicting to me were I to use Southern Baptists historic view of "slavery" as a comparison to Southern Baptists modern view of women if you were modeling the predominate response I receive to this issue in the SBC - a Convention of which you are not a member.

But, sadly, I find that many Southern Baptist leaders (again, not all), compare women in ministry to "homosexual sex acts" and other sins of sexual immorality. In other words, when "women in ministry" is compared to "homosexual unions," then I find myself sometimes pushing back harder than maybe I should.

I realize classical liberals would never see a difference between homosexuality and women in ministry. I am attempting to help my brothers and sisters who are Southern Baptists to see they are making a huge mistake if they lump all who disagree with them on women in ministry issues into the "classical theological liberal" camp.

This particular issue is often a "conservative" vs. "conservative" interpretation disagreement.

In Dr. Gilbert Bilezikian's dedication to his classic egalitarian work entitled "Beyond Sex Roles: What the Bible Says About a Woman's Place in Church and Family," he dedicates the book to "Men and women in quest of obedience to Holy Writ."

It would be helpful for inerrantists to drop the homosexual comparisons and the slavery comparisons in the struggle to properly interpret the Bible's position on women. I am guilty of the latter comparison because I am working in the midst of the former. One of these days the dialogue may be much more respectful. I am ready and will seek to do my part to initiate it.

In His Grace,

Wade
The world is too dangerous to live in - not because of the people who do evil but because of the people who sit and let it happen.

Albert Einstein
User avatar
Wade Burleson
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Enid, Oklahoma

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby linda » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:16 pm

Pastor Burleson--your reply can only be that of a Christian and a gentleman!

Yes, I think I am learning some balance in the church I attend now (a Church of the Nazarene). Not everyone sees everything eye to eye, but there is great trust that each is actively seeking the mind of the Lord.

And yes, I totally agree that we are in a conservative vs conservative debate rather than conservative vs liberal.

I so long for the SBC I grew up with. There, each could voice their understanding without rebuke or censure even when the next to share spoke the exact opposite. We trusted our Bibles and trusted in the illumination of the Holy Spirit.

I believe the far bigger issue than women's ordination is this: have we completely distrusted the Holy Spirit? Do Southern Baptists no longer believe in soul competency?

I would sure like to see you tackle that issue more often on your blog, as I personally believe that is the root of many of these firefights.

Again, peace, and thanks for your reply!
Linda
linda
 
Posts: 447
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:53 pm

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:56 pm

50 years is a long long time from now.

But, I'm pretty confident that the pro-women pastors movement isn't exactly a growing constituency among active Southern Baptists - meaning the Southern Baptists that both to show up to the Annual Meeting every summer. Wade - who has described himself as a "cultural complimentarian" whatever that means - is to the lonely left of these Southern Baptists on the issue of women in ministry.

I know a few *younger* Southern Baptists (i.e. a handful of years older than me but probably 4-5 handful of years younger than most here at BL.com) who would share my observation. Like it or not, complimentarianism is the official dogma of the Southern Baptist Convention. While not everyone in the SBC is on board with the increasingly popular Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood form of complimentarianism that is coming out of SBTS, the softer form of complimentarianism embraced by many Southern Baptists is a long long long way from an egaliatarianism that would allow for women to serve as senior pastors. Complimentarianism in generally is widely accepted by the younger generations of Southern Baptists. Don't look for these younger Southern Baptists to do a 180 on gender roles anytime in the near future...
User avatar
Big Daddy Weaver
 
Posts: 2494
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:15 am
Location: Waco, TX

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Big Daddy Weaver » Fri Jul 24, 2009 3:33 pm

The Mohlers and Pattersons of the SBC have had quite an influence on the younger generation regarding gender roles. Non-Southern Baptists like Piper, Grudem, and more recently Driscoll have reaffirmed those complimentarian convictions as well.

I have not heard many (any?) public cries from within the Southern Baptist family to dump BFM 2000 in the last few years.

Burleson alleges in the NPR article that:

Burleson believes there's a quiet underground movement within the convention to rethink women's roles. Land says Burleson is dreaming. He says Southern Baptists are united on the issue.


Hard to disprove (or prove) that there is a "quiet underground movement." Movements usually aren't quiet.

Although, I can't think of one single current self-identified Southern Baptist (who is active in the SBC affairs) who has authored an article or essay in any publication promoting egalitarianism over complimentarianism
User avatar
Big Daddy Weaver
 
Posts: 2494
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 12:15 am
Location: Waco, TX

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Chris » Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:17 pm

David Flick wrote:... The day will come --after this generation of leaders moves on to heaven--


Are you sure of this destination? :wink:
Jesus paid the price for me and everybody.
Chris
 
Posts: 4201
Joined: Wed Nov 23, 2005 7:29 pm
Location: Newport News, VA

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby David Flick » Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:37 pm

Chris wrote:
David Flick wrote:... The day will come --after this generation of leaders moves on to heaven--

Are you sure of this destination? :wink:

Maybe a tiny twinge of universalism has invaded my moderate mind... :wink: I well remember when Moz was consigning people to hell every now and then. And that was when I was a Southern Baptist. I don't think anyone takes too kindly to be consigned to places other than heaven...
User avatar
David Flick
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8490
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:55 pm
Location: Oklahoma City, OK

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:27 pm

David Flick wrote:
Chris wrote:
David Flick wrote:... The day will come --after this generation of leaders moves on to heaven--

Are you sure of this destination? :wink:

Maybe a tiny twinge of universalism has invaded my moderate mind... :wink: I well remember when Moz was consigning people to hell every now and then. And that was when I was a Southern Baptist. I don't think anyone takes too kindly to be consigned to places other than heaven...



Ed: David when one starts having twinges of universalism it usually means they are knocking on the door of Liberalism of the secular variety. But is it universalism to believe that some of the SB power brokers will be in Heaven. As long as they are alive they have some the opportunity to repent. :)

And BTW, that Free Will Baptist preacher from Arkansas, nor any other human has ever never consigned any one to hell. He indeed declared that some of us are going there but my fate is in God's hands not that radicals. And note Chris did :wink: .

Definition of Consign = transitive verb1: to give over to another's care2: to give, transfer, or deliver into the hands or control of another ; also : to commit especially to a final destination or fate <a writer consigned to oblivion>3: to send or address to an agent to be cared for or sold.
User avatar
Ed Pettibone
 
Posts: 11963
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:46 pm
Location: .Burnt Hills, New York, Capital Area

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Steve Wilcox » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:18 am

linda wrote:I believe in the priesthood of the believer, so I wouldn't break fellowship with someone for being either egalitarian or complementarian.

I do believe the comps need to understand that it is possible to have a high view of scripture and believe scripture allows women ordination and teaches mutual submission in marriage.

And, conversely, I believe the egals need to understand it is possible to have a high view of scripture and believe it forbids women's ordination and teaches women to be submissive (not subordinate) in marriage.

What I deplore is the demonizing of those who honestly hold a different view. Women who are comps are now often told they are just in denial, or complicit in their own subjegation, or refusing adult status, or other such insults. Men who are comps are called male supremicists in the comment stream on Pastor Burleson's blog. Women who are egals are often seen as buying into the whole radical version of femininity (proabortion, prolesbian, etc), or considered manhaters. Men who are egals are often accused of paying no attention to scripture.

My take is this: let each be fully persuaded in their own mind, and act accordingly. If you are a woman who believes you are called to ordination, seek it. But instead of trying to force every convention or denomination to accept you, serve in one that already does. If you are a church member who believes the scripture forbids women's ordination, vote against it and if necessary vote with your feet.

But let's have an end to comments such as Pastor Burleson's comparing being strongly comp with slavery. The whole idea that unless a woman is just like a man excepting reproduction is far more "male supremacist" than is not ordaining women.

Let's understand that there really can be such a thing a separate but equal roles. Just look at the military: one colonel may be in charge of infantry, and another of artillary, but they are still colonels and still equal.

Once the issue of equallity is dealt with--that is, once we understand it isn't about who is superior and who is inferior, we can honestly tackle the job of searching the scripture to learn who is to do what.

My personal view? I believe there are some general guidelines. I believe within those general guidelines a man is to provide for his wife and children, and a wife is to take care of the home and family. (I know that offends some, but Titus 2:5 is still in my Bible.) Those are GENERAL guidelines, however. In the case of death, disability, job layoff, etc, exceptions must be made. Because of those guidelines, I believe most women have more important things to do than to pastor a church. Some women are single, or widowed, etc, and therefore do not have those general responsibilities. I believe fully God can call whomever He wishes to the ministry, and have lived in places where no man would accept a call to pastor. Should we have called a woman? Or should we have done without? Were we in that pickle because a man said no to God? I don't have the answers.

I do know that not every man who believes he is called to the pastorate should be ordained. Some just don't meet scriptural qualifications. Women will have to get used to the same idea--that just because you believe you are called doesn't necessarily mean you are.

And somehow we have to find a middle ground. Pastor Burleson has suggested on his blog that not ordaining women was a culturally driven construct. I agree. I would also add that the current idea of ordaining women is also a culturally driven construct.

I believe we need to honestly seek the truth as taught in scripture, not the truth we want to find.

And that truth will probably upset men, women, egals, and comps.


Linda,

Thank you for putting into words so eloquently what I have been struggling do on this forum.

I think we are given freedom in the Bible to have different views on non-salvation issues and we can form a group of Christians based upon those views while not being intimidated, insulted, having our salvation questioned and shunned. Those that do this cause me more concern than those that have a different opinion on a view such as ordaining women.

It has been an eye opening experience to be on this forum the last couple of years. I was not involved or cared much about what happened in the 80s in the SBC. But from what I have read here those now on the outside, for the most part, are just as guilty of what they have accused the SBC leadership of doing.

Let us have our different denominations or non-denoms, but let use also recognize we are free to have different views, we do not have to force our opinions on others and we can work together to further the kingdom of God. The disharmony is a tactic used by Satan to keep us apart, we are not each others enemy.

I try my best to get other staunce SBCers to understand this and I hope those of you in other demons. will do the same.

Again, Linda, thank you.
Steve Wilcox
 
Posts: 810
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:21 pm

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby linda » Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:29 pm

Thanks for the encouragement!

When I long for the SBC of the 1960's and 1970's as I experienced it in my neck of the woods, that was the key--soul competency.

We could and did debate and do so vigorously--but it wasn't until the 1990's that I started hearing Baptists seriously call other Baptists heretic over any issues save the deity of Christ, virgin birth, etc.

Arminians and Cals, free gracers and Lordship salvationers, comps and egals, etc, all met under the big tent of salvation through faith in Jesus without resort to human mediator, and a belief in once saved always saved.

Now we can't even agree on the music, let alone doctrine or theology.
Linda
linda
 
Posts: 447
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:53 pm

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby JaneFordA » Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:45 am

Why is this happening? I thought that once the "Resurgence" got rid of heretics and horrible people like me, the SBC was destined to become heaven on earth--without the undesirables, you know.
(\~~/)
(= '.' =)
User avatar
JaneFordA
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:09 pm
Location: Glendale, OH (home of the famous black squirrels)

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Dave Roberts » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:51 am

JaneFordA wrote:Why is this happening? I thought that once the "Resurgence" got rid of heretics and horrible people like me, the SBC was destined to become heaven on earth--without the undesirables, you know.


There is still one little problem--sin with that big i in the middle. It didn't disappear with the "undesirables" :wink: .
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7681
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Sandy » Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:57 am

Tim Dahl wrote:I believe that our current theological construct of Ordination is a hold over from the Catholic Church. It is there to signify those in power, period. This gives one power to do certain things that others can't (ordinances anyone?). I believe this goes against what Scripture teaches. Instead, we are modeling Church, Pastors, Ministers, Laity, Clergy, whatever on a worldly model and not Christ centered.

Seriously, if it wasn't functionally necessary to have ordination within Texas Baptist circles, I wouldn't have it.

However, since it is functionally necessary for one to be a pastor of our more established churches, I believe that women are able to be ordained just as men. The Pastorate isn't supposed to be about "who has power over who," it is supposed to be about how the Pastor is blessed to be used of God to serve God's congregation.

I bet if the Pastorate became more of a servant's position, we would see a lot less men going there...

Oh wait, it already is! Fewer and fewer guys are going into the Pastorate. I wonder if that coincides with our societies disdain for the position, coupled with the dwindling power of the institutional church in America? I bet it is.

I wonder if anyone has done any research on it. I'll do some google searches and see what come up.

Tim

Don't know about the research, but I'll agree with you regarding "ordination." I can't find that church leadership has been separated into "clergy-laity" roles in the scripture, with "ordination" setting aside a special class for "clergy." Essentially, the early church selected its leaders based on qualification by scriptural standards, and whatever division of labor existed was done by recognition of spiritual gifts.

Big Daddy Weaver wrote:But, I'm pretty confident that the pro-women pastors movement isn't exactly a growing constituency among active Southern Baptists - meaning the Southern Baptists that both to show up to the Annual Meeting every summer. Wade - who has described himself as a "cultural complimentarian" whatever that means - is to the lonely left of these Southern Baptists on the issue of women in ministry.


I'd agree with that, and expand it to include most Southern Baptists who don't show up to the annual meeting, either. There is no real movement in that direction, and it does not appear that there are many women in Southern Baptist churches who are pushing for it. But then, most Southern Baptist churches have a large contingent of women who are active in the service of their church and using their spiritual gifts and if they are satisfied that they are fulfilling their calling, then there's no need for a movement.

But then, it does not appear that the "pro-women pastors movement" is a growing constituency among the moderate Baptist groups formed in the wake of the "conservative resurgence," either. It's not on the radar screen of a lot of CBF congregations, though most of them remain dually affiliated with the SBC. And among African American Baptist groups, though many of their churches have women in church leadership, proportionately, there are few women serving as pastors. It doesn't even seem that, though in many cases women outnumber men by a wide margin in many African American Baptist churches, there are many women serving as deacons.

Attempts to push it as an issue generally don't seem to come to much because the women in the churches themselves do not get behind it.
Sandy
 

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Mark » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:10 am

Sandy wrote: But then, most Southern Baptist churches have a large contingent of women who are active in the service of their church and using their spiritual gifts and if they are satisfied that they are fulfilling their calling, then there's no need for a movement...

Your statement sounds reminiscent of Governor Wallace long ago saying "Our blacks and whites get along fine down here in Alabama. Everybody's happy, therefore the feds need to stop making issues out of non-issues, always stirring the pot." :wink:

It's true that most Baptist women aren't pushing the issue of women being ordained or given equal standing to men in church leadership. Most poverty-stricken children in the world don't realize they're poverty-stricken. Does that make it less valid of a cause?
Mark
 
Posts: 3182
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:05 pm
Location: Alabama

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Sandy » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:19 pm

Mark wrote:
Sandy wrote: But then, most Southern Baptist churches have a large contingent of women who are active in the service of their church and using their spiritual gifts and if they are satisfied that they are fulfilling their calling, then there's no need for a movement...

Your statement sounds reminiscent of Governor Wallace long ago saying "Our blacks and whites get along fine down here in Alabama. Everybody's happy, therefore the feds need to stop making issues out of non-issues, always stirring the pot." :wink:

It's true that most Baptist women aren't pushing the issue of women being ordained or given equal standing to men in church leadership. Most poverty-stricken children in the world don't realize they're poverty-stricken. Does that make it less valid of a cause?


Pushing ordination, no. But to make that some kind of a cause is a bit patronizing, don't you think? Poor, ignorant, Southern Baptist women, don't know what they could have if they'd just demand it! Perhaps, from their Baptist heritage of being able to discern and interpret the scriptures for themselves, many of them have determined that they are living up to exactly what God called them to do, and don't want any more than that.

And as far as not having "equal standing to men in church leadership," that's, :lol: .
Sandy
 

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Neil Heath » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:35 pm

Regarding ordination, I don't see the need for it or the scriptural basis for it. I'm glad my church uses both clergy and laity in serving the Lord's Supper. Twice this summer the Sunday morning service was led by one of our mission teams so they could report on their recent trip. One was adults and youth, the other was the summer youth trip. In both cases the mission team led us in communion as a part of the service and no one batted an eye. It's not a minister-only thing. Neither is baptism in my book.

If done, I think ordination should be initiated by the church, not by the minister-to-be. If the church recognizes one's gifts and ordains that person because they feel the leadership of the Spirit to do so, that's the best approach. And if the minister has to ask for it, perhaps the church has not seen it for themselves. I was never ordained because I waited for the church to ask me ... they were right. :)

On the women minister issue, perhaps they don't push harder for it because they know the one who leads is not necessarily the one in charge. Why give up their power just to be put in charge, when they are already calling the shots without even being elected deacon? :)
Neil Heath
User avatar
Neil Heath
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:39 pm
Location: Macon, GA

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Sandy » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:19 pm

I think most Southern Baptist pastors are well aware of the fact that without the women members of their church stepping up to their calling, not much would happen in their church.
Sandy
 

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby JaneFordA » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:03 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:
Sandy wrote:But then, it does not appear that the "pro-women pastors movement" is a growing constituency among the moderate Baptist groups formed in the wake of the "conservative resurgence," either. It's not on the radar screen of a lot of CBF congregations, though most of them remain dually affiliated with the SBC. And among African American Baptist groups, though many of their churches have women in church leadership, proportionately, there are few women serving as pastors. It doesn't even seem that, though in many cases women outnumber men by a wide margin in many African American Baptist churches, there are many women serving as deacons.

Attempts to push it as an issue generally don't seem to come to much because the women in the churches themselves do not get behind it.


I would suggest that the SBC is just losing those women. It is just too big a hassle to fight the whole system so women who want to become clergy are becoming American Baptists, United Methodists, Presbyterians etc. They aren't fighting the battle in a church that doesn't want them. So, there is a movement but, it is a movement of called women who largely leave the SBC for more open fields.


Tea (bags), gentlemen? :D
(\~~/)
(= '.' =)
User avatar
JaneFordA
 
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2008 1:09 pm
Location: Glendale, OH (home of the famous black squirrels)

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby William Thornton » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:58 am

Timothy Bonney wrote:I would suggest that the SBC is just losing those women. It is just too big a hassle to fight the whole system so women who want to become clergy are becoming American Baptists, United Methodists, Presbyterians etc. They aren't fighting the battle in a church that doesn't want them. So, there is a movement but, it is a movement of called women who largely leave the SBC for more open fields.


I would only add that they are leaving the CBF as well. Most of the women pastors I have known are UMC and used to be Baptist.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12563
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Baptist Leaders Face Challenge On Women's Roles : NPR

Postby Neil Heath » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:55 am

William Thornton wrote:I would only add that they are leaving the CBF as well. Most of the women pastors I have known are UMC and used to be Baptist.


And I would add that every woman pastor I have known was the equal or better of the male pastors I've known, so we are losing a lot by their departure.
Neil Heath
User avatar
Neil Heath
Site Admin
 
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:39 pm
Location: Macon, GA


Return to SBC News and Trends

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron