question re creeds

[linda]

I will be visiting a church that uses the apostle's creed and the nicean creed.

Is there anything objectionable in them to the point I should just remain silent during their reading?

[johnfariss]

Both are orthodox and pre-date the first Baptist Confession of 1643, although probably are not as old as the title "the Apostle's Creed" implies. Historically (as I understand it) the problem our Baptist forefathers had with them was either the idea of a creed itself, viz., a man-made set of beliefs to which one pledged, or a denomination-wide set of beliefs which placed loyalty at a point other than the local church, and thus potentially interfered with the autonomy of the local church. One strain of early Baptists, still influencial today, proclaimed, "No creed but the Bible," while others used confessions in various forms. The difference in a confession and a creed is essentially that a confession represents a consensus of opinion--one may say, "I don't necessarily fully agree with every item, but I can live with it," whereas in a creed, one is saying, "This in my set of beliefs, and not mine only, but the entire group (church, association, convention, etc.) is in uniformity on every item. Tbis is my problem with the BF&M2K, as it includes both "consensus" language and the statement that it is an "instrument of doctrinal accountability," which at the least is very close to a creed.

John

[Haruo]

The Apostles' Creed was famously recited at the founding convention of the BWA, probably not so much as a confession or creed for the participants as to assure those outside our denomination(s) of our basic orthodoxy.

The Apostles' Creed is typically Western, i.e. Latin/Catholic as opposed to Greek/Orthodox. I don't know that the Eastern churches have any objection to its contents, but it's not part of their basic tradition (and they don't go in much at all for anything that's not part of their basic tradition).

You might want to consider your personal beliefs about the interrelationship of the Persons of the Trinity, and specifically "where or Whom the Holy Spirit proceeds from", before deciding whether to participate in reciting the Nicene Creed; one of the famous points involved in the Great Schism just preceding the Crusades—the schism that left the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox completely separated from each other—had to do with the Catholics' introduction of an added word ("Filioque" in Latin: "and from the Son") into the Nicene Creed. This creed, which came out of the Nicene church councils of the fourth century where orthodox Trinitarianism won out over Arianism (in which the Son and/or Spirit are not equally "God" with the Father), originally said that the Spirit "proceeds from the Father". When the Western churches started saying "proceeds from the Father and from the Son", it was just the last straw. No wonder the Eastern Orthodox left in a huff.

There have been Baptist schisms that weren't much more christlike (see the stealing from the disabled thread) than this, I daresay. But not many ...

There is also the question of whether one says "We believe..." or "I believe..."; I have much less difficulty affirming "we believe" about things wherein I have my doubts than I have in saying "I believe" in such cases. Though I suppose I could just say "I believe..." and then append "help thou mine unbelief" at the end.

[Tim Bonney]

Linda I can't think of anything in the those two creeds that the average Baptist would disagree with. If you'd like to check out the text of those creeds go to my blog (there is a link in my signature) and click on the tab that lists "ecumenical creeds."

[linda]

Thanks all! I'm familiar with them, and just wondered if there was something objectionable about them.

It may sound strange, but right now my husband has found what he terms "the best Baptist preacher in town". She (yes, she) is Episcopal and filling in at a Lutheran church. Apparently she is getting with the program and thought I'd sneak over and hear her some myself.

[Tim Bonney]

[linda]

Thanks all!

Heard a very good sermon on the Second Coming of Christ. It was balanced, giving differing views but stressing that however and whenever Jesus comes again, we need individually to be prepared.

Very good, very Baptist preaching.

Truly the world is homogenizing.