As Seen on Twitter

[Tim Bonney]

From someone I follow in Twitter who lives near SBTS.

"Overheard some of the loud conversation two "worship pastors" are having in my local coffee shop: 'his parents aren't Christians. His mom goes to a liberal, very liberal, Methodist church. His dad calls himself a Presbyterian.'

Oh the joys of living near Southern Seminary!"

Is this attitude that Methodists and Presbyterians aren't real Christians prevalent among Southern Baptist leaders? I used to think Baptists were past this.

[Haruo]

Well, you know you can't be a loyal American citizen and vote for a Democrat.

[linda]

I do not live near any seminaries of any stripe. We usually meet with other folks for coffee most every day. Today we played hooky from church. Here it is considered a mark of deep piety to attend church when sick. We have health problems that make that dangerous for us to be around, a virus causing high fever and heavy chest involvement is moving through our congregation, and so we have to absent ourselves for a while from church. The coffee crowd usually stays home when sick.

All that said to set the scene for the conversations of the last few weeks.

Quite a few questioning if certain others are even Christians. SBC folk who are traditionalists theologically question if JD Greear is even saved, given his own statements in his book about Stop Asking Jesus into Your Heart, some of his sermons, etc. He seems to deny being born again, and to an SBC traditionalist that means he is unsaved.

The local UMC folks are about having spasms. Those that are of a faction that sees being Christian a matter of saying you are one, and then being nice and kind according to what a culture says is nice and kind are labelling the born again faction unsaved and not Christians, and the born again faction are returning the favor.

The Amish think we are all unsaved if we are not Amish.

And so it goes.

[Haruo]

You never know, it might be up to God to sort 'em (which includes us!) out, like somebody in the Torquemada Inquisition once suggested.

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

Circle drawing seems to be a preoccupation of many of us. Sadly, we can draw our circles in such a manner that God may no be welcome either in our churches.

[linda]

Maybe it is a regional thing, but Methodists in NM when I was a kid and daddy was Methodist and on the church board definitely used the term born again, and sought to lead folks to a "crisis of conversion" or "being born again", their terms not mine. Here where we live now there are a large faction in the local UMC very clear about being born again. That is probably part of the split the whole town sees coming for our local UMC. Some are Wesleyans in a more revivalistic, evangelistic mode. Others are Wesleyans more in a "baptized as a baby and therefore saved" mode. For the first group, expecting a crisis of conversion (and a thorough going conversion where the person is expected to lead a changed life) makes it hard to swallow the progressive agenda that seems to assume people cannot convert, but rather are victims of, whatever their besetting sin is. And of course for the second group, it seems to them the first group is asking the impossible. (The first group would here toss in prevenient grace, saving grace, sustaining grace, sanctifying grace, and glorifying grace.)

It really is more two very different religions or faiths that sprung from common ground. I personally think a split would be a wonderful thing EVEN IF the hot button issues had never arisen.

But then I would say a split between the new Calvinists and the SBC traditionalists would be a good thing.

And with Calvinism invading our local AoG I would assume at some point there may be some splitting there.

The local CotN, very definitely formerly a "born again" stressing denomination, now follows headquarters and no longer teaches or expects a crisis of conversion.

Lots of changes going on under labels, and as a frequent transferee it can get crazy confusing.

Hard for me to believe JD Greear and Charles Stanley can be in the same group, lol.

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[linda]

Timothy you may be arguing with what I DIDN'T say.

You may never have heard of crisis of conversion, but my relatives in the RCC, the SBC, the CotN, the AoG, and the UMC all have and use the term interchangeably with born again. You may not have heard of sustaining grace and glorifying grace but I cut my spiritual teeth hearing all five referred to in Methodist Churches. I am an antique lol but it was pre UMC. It was "The Methodist Church." A blend of northern and southern Methodist Episcopal AND Methodist Protestant, which was and is still a strong influence in parts of the south and southwest theologically. (In 67 or 68, right after the EUB and Methodists joined to be UMC the emphasis in our area changed to a more liturgical and anglo catholic church.) First altar calls for a crisis of conversion, or to be born again, or to "get saved" I ever heard were in a tiny Methodist church. In fact, Baptists could not have real altar calls because they had no altar!

So I think you are illustrating what I said perfectly: there are some strong theological differences and some strong regional differences adding fuel to the fire of going with an Untied rather than United Methodist church.

I was taught as a kid that prevenient grace is God's work to enable us to come in faith to Christ. Justifying grace was what we received at initial salvation. Sanctifying grace was what we received to cleanse us for living as a Christian. (Some were more entire sanctification or fast way, some more continual or slow way of growth in grace, but you had to be IN sanctifying grace to grow in it.) Sustaining grace was what God gave us each time we are tempted to sin. If we will turn to Him and seek Him He will strengthen us to stand firm at that "near occasion of sin" or temptation. And glorifying grace is what we get when we die as believers--finally perfected to be with the Lord forever, as we sure as shootin' won't take our sins and dirty hearts into Heaven.

All of that is quite Wesleyan historically. As is the more Anglo Catholic side of the UMC. Which indeed makes them very different churches or religions altogether, and an amicable split might be very healthy.

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Haruo]

. I haven't watched the whole thing, don't know what he says about "sustaining grace", but I know he mentions "glorifying grace" in terms similar to linda's understanding of it. Don't know if he's a Methodist, either, but he obviously knows a fair amount about Wesleyan salvation.

"Crisis of conversion" seems to me to have Aldersgate and Charles' conversion experience written all over it. Not to mention Saul en route to Damascus.

That was a funny "touché" point about Baptist altar calls, too.

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Haruo]

[Sandy]

[Haruo]

SBC is doing, and counting, infant baptisms now???

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Haruo]

Well, I imagine if they've been in AWANA since postpartum days, by 4 or 5 they should be capable of informed consent. SBC are pretty hep, pretty smart, you know, and not just those named Alec.