The Texas Church Shooting

[Dave Roberts]

I watched several times yesterday the tape from the church near Fort Worth where a shooting took place on Sunday. That was both a reassuring and disturbing event to me. Once again, worship has been disrupted for another murder. At the same time, I am grateful that the church had made provision to have on-scene security guards. The two near the back (one in uniform and one in plainclothes) were quick to respond and did so without hesitation. The thing that disturbed me was that after the shooter had gone down, suddenly a third of the congregation, it seemed, all drew their own weapons. I had to wonder at the number of weapons and the sheer danger if one of these untrained personnel had begun to fire in panic. What does it say about worship that so many were armed in that church?

[Sandy]

Texas has been the scene of some of the most horrific church shootings. It is a concealed carry state and that's not a safe part of town. The first person shot was one of the armed security guards. I wonder how much the guy knew about the church's security, since they appeared to be his first targets. Wonder what the story is behind this.

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

We have off duty police officers as security at all church events. It's a mindset in Chicago, though the neighborhood we are in is relatively safe and not near the isolated areas of the city where there is a lot of gun violence. It's mainly a precaution because we are on a busy street, there's lots of foot traffic, the property around us is closely built, we're a block from a major intersection and because it is a church, there are "street people" who come usually looking for a handout of some kind. The off-duty police tell us the same thing, they'd prefer members of the church who have permits not carry unless they are trained.

[Tim Bonney]

[Haruo]

I don't know if we have anyone packing in church, and I'd just as soon not know. Even though I'm the Vice President. Somebody starts shooting, I say pretend it's an earthquake and get under the pews.

[Sandy]

[Stephen Fox]

Gentlemen you are distracted from the real Evil here. It is what it hasalways been the dark money Politics of the Leadership of the NRA. That is the focus. Check the concluding paragraphs of Joe Oneill No More Nice Dems at Nybooks.com or the quote in my recent blog on the SC 4th

[William Thornton]

I'm of a divided mind here. We have armed guys at church (lots of law enforcement people attend our church). They have security training. We've turned down a couple of people who wanted to be on the team. It's ridiculous to have dozens of armed people in church on Sunday, some highly trained and some cowboys. It's tough to argue with the results of the most recent shooting. I'd expect that if some clown came into our church with a trench coat, wig, and fake beard he would be followed if not immediately accosted by church security.

...waiting to see more details about the Texas shooting.

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

The thing that's disturbing about this particular church shooting is that there were three dead, two of the guys with guns and the shooter, also with a gun. Looking at the video, there are a lot of questions. Why would the shooter pick this particular church? It's not a large congregation, mostly older people, an old-style Church of Christ. How did this guy get in without being noticed or was he a member or someone they knew? Virtually every church shooting has a story behind it with a connection to the congregation. We'll see what this one is and how the guy got hold of the gun he used.

Here's an update on the shooter:
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2 ... ch-attack/

So the guy was a shooting waiting to happen, given that he got hold of a gun with a criminal record like that. Suicide attempt?

[Lou]

I heard on NPR this morning that the shooter was fairly-well known to the church, or at least to the church's leadership. He was a transient or semi-transient person who apparently had a history with the church (perhaps through the church's benevolence ministry, although that is entirely speculative on my part). I think I recall hearing that he had previously made threats against the church's minister(s).

[Lou]

Updated information on the shooter: According to recent new stories, the gunman had requested money from the church on numerous occasions in the past, but had gotten angry because he was always given food instead of cash. Not saying that this grudge is what led him to do what he did on Sunday, but there it is. He had a lengthy criminal history including felonies such as assault with a deadly weapon, which means that he was not legally entitled to own a firearm of any sort.

The possibility of an individual coming to the church requesting money and becoming angry when not given what they ask for is a potential scenario I deal with on a regular basis. The church I pastor is in an economically-depressed area of town, and rarely a week goes by that I don't have at least one (and sometimes several) individuals come seeking assistance of some kind or another. We have a policy that no one is given cash, but will try to help as we are able in other ways. And yes, on a few occasions people left angry at me because I wouldn't put some dollar bills in their hand. Never angry enough at me to get violent, but still. But that possibility--no matter how remote--it is something I cannot afford NOT to think about. I discussed it with a good friend in the church who is a policeman, and this is what he said to me: "If anyone ever attacks you in your office, you can try to get to the phone and call 911 and they will dispatch an officer who will get there as quickly as possible. But the chances of that officer arriving before the bad stuff has already happened are basically zero." And then he proceeded to advise me to go to our local gun range and try out a few pistols and find one that suited me; and then to get trained and licensed to carry that pistol.

Which is what I did. And even as I type this, a Glock 43 is riding on my hip underneath my shirt.

[Joseph Patrick]

From Gerry Milligan...Already the NRA is touting their mantra, "The only way to defeat a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." I am saddened that two congregants died...but I am also sorry the assailant died. I do not know the right answer...will we soon be seeing metal scanners in churches?

[Haruo]

I keep expecting to find this in the Politics forum, not Baptist Faith & Practice.

A on the matter (doesn't offer any solutions, just POVs).

[Dave Roberts]

[Haruo]

Yeah, it's not inappropriate here, just counterintuitive for me anyway.

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

A 2015 Study on firearm use in crime that is worth a read.
http://www.vpc.org/studies/justifiable15.pdf

[Tim Bonney]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... nce-shows/

Another article that indicates that homes with guns are less safe than those without. I’ve not seen stats for churches yet. But I’m suspicious stats could easily show having people armed in church won’t make anyone safer.

[Sandy]

In this particular shooting, two of the "good guys with guns" in the church that morning are dead, along with a third guy who also had a gun. This guy shouldn't ever have been able to get his hands on a weapon with his record but in Texas, there would be multiple places where he could get his hands on one without anyone checking. A private sale, a gun show, a dealer, no background check, no problem, no questions asked.

This has not resolved the problem. I'd bet on the odds of another sensational church shooting happening soon, not because many conservatives have a persecution complex and like to complain how bad things are getting because it fits with their eschatology, but because the state of Texas will still take a do nothing attitude toward gun reform and some nut job who has a grudge against a church will be able to get his hands on a gun and shoot up a church. A background check requirement and a ten day waiting period would have saved this congregation a lot of heartache.

[Stephen Fox]

Is a US Congressman from SC whose district includes Dabo Swinney and the Tigers. Duncan is a founding member of the NRA's 2nd Amendment Caucus in the House. Mohler could have some prayer time with Dabo and Duncan and Franklin Graham, and maybe after a read of my latest blog on SC 4th and FBC Spartanburg, well that's prayertime that could make a difference, if they read my blog

[Tim Bonney]

[Lou]