A Lord's Prayer Question

[Dave Roberts]

I have never encountered any commentary reference to this, but as I was reading the Lord's Prayer in the King James format "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors," is it possible Jesus was not referring to trespasses as our common offenses but was making an economic statement for the keeping of the Sabbath Year and the Year of Jubilees when all debts were to be forgiven and everyone could go back to ancestral holdings, even if they had been mortgaged during the normal years? If so, then we have spiritualized the central prayer of our faith rather than living out its precepts. What do you think?

[Haruo]

Haven't ever thought about it, and don't know what to think, but I do find it interesting that in in verses 14 and 15, which appear to be part of Jesus' exposition of his just-debuted prayer, he uses a different word, which KJV does render as trespasses. ὀφειλήματα vs. παραπτώματα

[Dave Roberts]

Dr. Page Kelley, one of my OT profs, always stressed that the best interpretation of scripture is always by other scripture, so I guess his idea still percolates through my brain from time to time.

[Rvaughn]

1 And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3 Give us day by day our daily bread.
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

The Luke 11 passage seems to use sins and debts synonymously.

[Dave Roberts]

I still can't help wondering about the possible link to the Sabbath Year and the Year of Jubilees. That's certainly a biblical ethic that has gotten little play in a capitalist society.

[KeithE]

I’ve been told (Rev Dr. G Todd Wilson and Rev Howard Williams) that the word (alternately translated debts, trespasses and sins) really implies a monetary “debt”. If that be true, it is another radical teaching from Jesus that Western “civilized” people just cannot accept. I (no expert in Greek or in Jesus’s time) don’t think it is necessarily talking about the formal/literal Jubilee normalization of debts in sabbath years; but it does mean radical and generous cancelation/lessening of debts (both forgiving our own debts {easy} and forgiving debts we hold on others {not so easy}). As in other matters in the Sermon on the Mount, our inner attitudes are at issue as much or more so than outward acts.

Translated to our world, at a minimum we ought to:
a) not allow payday lenders/credit cards who charge exorbitant interest rates (say over 10% a year)
b) return all estate money to a collective source of money (say to reduce our national debt) when one dies (exception wife) and not pass it on to offspring or anyone else. Yes that amounts to a 100% estate tax at all estate levels. This has the side benefits of restoring the USA to our claim of being a 'Land of Equal Opportunity’ and substantially reducing our national debt.

Transition to these more Jesus-following approaches in the civilized world would take a long time and probably too utopian to bring about (may already be in place in the uncivilized world). But the two steps above can be implemented, if it can be politically handled (Christians should be on the side of Jesus).

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

The question about inner attitudes is, "Do inner attitudes mean anything if they do not produce outward acts?" That's one of my struggles about our attitudes. Was James right, "Faith without works is dead, being alone"?

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

An old pastor friend once told me, "Jesus told us not to be judges of each other, but he did invite us to be fruit inspectors."