BaptistLife.Com Forums.

My copy of The Exiled Generations: Legacies of the Southern Baptist Convention Holy War arrived about two weeks ago, but with the weather being as it is, and the school schedule changing daily, I didn't get into it immediately. Stephen's entry was the first one I read.

It's largely an account of his ouster from the Collinsville Baptist Church, with commentary on the denominational-political perspective that he insists got him ousted. It includes his version of the conflict with his pastor, the involvement of the church's deacons, and a mention of his involvement here at Bl.com which was being read by some of the church members, including, according to him, the pastor's wife. It sets up his position, on the "moderate" side of the conflict, with his normal name dropping and connections to leaders on that side of the SBC, along with touting his educational background against a characterization of the church and its leadership as "small town Alabama" in contrast.

What I get from the narrative is that Stephen believed that if he could only use his Furman education and his own experience as a background, he could "educate" the membership of the Collinsville church to the point where they would accept his premises, and add their support to the voices of those who were trying to prevent a fundamentalist takeover of the SBC. That same theme is echoed by several of the other excerpts I've read up to this point as well, that moderates were educated scholars, and as such, were entitled to convention leadership, while the uneducated fundies were not. Marshall Frady, Will Campbell, Will Willimon, Deitrich Boenhoffer, Carlyle Marney and Molly Marshall are among the name drops. There are hints that at least some of the difficulty involved conservative vs. liberal politics.

As I read through the book, realizing that it is written by the "second generation" children of individuals who once held power and influence, along with some of the better, high dollar denominational jobs, I get a clear sense of entitlement from them. Some are upset that when their parent lost their prominent, powerful position, they lost a chance at getting a job themselves without having to rely on their own credentials or compete with other people whose parents were not as influential, or as well placed. Stephen, at least, doesn't resort to the level of whining that some of the narrative authors do. Others show a level of contempt in criticizing the education and intelligence of those who moved the SBC in a more conservative direction, as well as for the members of the churches that accepted the need for change, and helped bring it about.

Sandy, I love how you come always to the same point of entitlement. Some of us knew nothing about that. My parents were not part of denominational politics, never attended an SBC or even a state convention. My mom went to a few associational meetings. Only one of my former pastors ever had a denominational job, and he left my home church when I was 7. I am not out to demean any of the Takeover crowd, just report what I saw and witnessed directly. I love Stephen Fox as my brother, but his take is not mine. Nobody is entitled to anything, except having the truth reported about them, not manufactured half-truths from carefully lifted quotes. At least in the old days, the SBC did not have a College of Cardinals (January Bible Study Cruise) to pick SBC presidents.

I guess I need to get a copy of the book. I can't take Sandy's word because his outlook on moderates is just so negative.

I think if a moderate pastor could walk on water Sandy would complain that he walked on his feet and not his hands.

I would say that it is nearly impossible for a moderate, or one who sympathizes with them, to see whining in these narratives, or to see the sense of entitlement. But look at it this way. What's the need for yet another collection of narratives, this time from individuals who were mostly children and teenagers during the main part of the "controversy," more than thirty years after the fact, and long after moderates have declared they've discovered "a new way to be Baptist," and "we've moved on"? Clearly, that's not the case, at least for some, a fact that is confirmed by the perceived need for this particular volume. Perhaps a good secondary title for this book would be "The Search for Significance," because it seems that the work these folks are doing now doesn't provide them with that without rehashing the unfairness of three decades ago. And of course, every essay in the book is written from the perspective of its author, with no challenge to their recollection of the facts.

I know several of the authors by reputation, and two others from having been involved in the same state convention, and in one case, the same association. I know the axes they have to grind. In that sense, the whole book is a "whine."

Sandy,

You thumb your nose about issues of "entitlement." I've not read the book so I cannot comment yet on if authors showed a sense of entitlement.

But as has been said above, I never had an important relative or mentor in the upper leadership of the SBC. So what did happen to me is that I looked at the CBF during its formation. Most of the CBF churches early on were large churches. I was a young pastor in my 20s and did not have the experience to apply for any of those CBF churches and be considered seriously. As of yet no placement system existed in the CBF. The Alliance was just forming and didn't have churches to apply to either.

So what did I do? Well as a moderate I could have tried to serve in Fundy churches and cover up my views. But that would have been dishonest. So I left the SBC for the ABC as there were few opportunities for young moderates in the CBF at the time.

That isn't being said to "whine" but simply to say that people in my generation of Southern Baptist moderates often went to the ABC, the PCUSA, and the UMC etc. because the change of the SBC structure from a moderate controlled denomination to the Takeover crowd left a whole bunch of us out in the cold.

Was I specifically entitled to an SBC church? No, of course not. But the opportunities to get an SBC church that existed before the takeover became very slim for people like me who grew up in a moderate SBC church and was educated at what used to be a moderate SBC seminary.

So while I was never entitled to an SBC pastorate, the fact that I grew up in the SBC, that my family had been in the SBC for generations, that I had been educated at SBC colleges and seminaries and that I was ordained by an SBC church had come to mean basically nothing for my future ministry.

That certainly left a bad taste in my mouth for what the Takeover leadership did to a whole generation of pastors who followed their call and then found that the rug had been pulled out from under them.

Sorry, Keith, but a book written by children of some individuals who found themselves on the outside of the SBC more than thirty years ago is a whine. I've set my copy down, and I'm not picking it up again.

One, Ken Satterfield talks about his father's experience. There is no way you could call Sattefrield, or myself for that matter, to the manor born in Baptist life. I saw several nice things about the promise of the church and name two outstanding women, one a hs classmate of my Mother that showed early promise of the church.

I hope Dave Roberts gets a copy of the book soon, Very interested in reading his take on my effort and the others; and Thornton for that matter as well.

Dave, send me an email. Keith get my emaiul to Dave. I will try to get Dave a copy a shared copy asap, though I encourage all of you to have your local library, public library and many of you your church library bone up for a copy. Carson Newman's Dave McCneely piece is beautifully written, and The essay "She Ironed our Underwear". Also, Bailey Edwards Nelson, another Furman grand and o=in the origins of the New Baptist Covenant movement, has a great piece about her time in Mt Airy N.C. though I'm sure next to mine it was one of Sandy's least faves.

While I take issue of course, with his takeaway, I appreciate him taking a look at the book.

Some of you will want to visit the facebook discussion of this book http://www.facebook.com/sbcexiles. I'm going to link this discussion there.

Praise report, there is a copy in the Ft Payne Alabama library now, but not sure if Collinsville Lyberry has a copy yet.

There are some rubes in the Collinsville Congregation for sure, but I did not paint them as Sandy suggests. There are Auburn, Dyuke, UVA, Yale, Baylor, Samfor Penn State, Judson and many others in the church, some of them in the honors program. So the church's extended family was very capable of understanding what was at stake. I think I did a fairly decent job in eight pages of explaining their "Pass" on the matter and how it happened.

P.S.; If Sandy liked my testimony, he's gonna love the one from Oklahoma's Lavonn Brown/s son; worth the book right there for David Flick!

I think I have Fortner's reply somewhere; If I can find it will post it as well. It got posted in the Collinsville Post Office with some detractors writing in comments at my expense,

http://www.postpaper.com/foxoped.htm

This book is just a collection of memoirs from the perspective of the writer, mostly second-hand, and years ago. For moderate Baptists, who claim high respect for scholarship, and value affirmation, this kind of gossipy reminiscing is out of character. Oh, what a field day they'd have if conservatives put forth something like this, and then followed it up with a second volume written by the next generation.

I don't think all of the moderate recollections of "the controversy" are as accurate and truthful as they claim. There were some pretty unchristian tactics and personal kingdom building and turf protecting tactics committed by the moderate, pre-1979 SBC leadership that were not examples of ideal purity. If these folks are finding their new Baptist identity and ventures to be less than satisfying, perhaps they could take up scuba diving or underwater basketweaving.

[quote="Ed Pettibone”]
Ed; Sandy, you have repeated your opinion of Kell's latest on/from the "exiled", some of us are still waiting for you to cite something from the book to support that opinion. Honestly, I have seen nothing from you that would persuade me that you have even seen the book.
[/quote]

I was going to say the same thing.

Well I just ordered a copy of the book from Amazon. Anything that Sandy dislikes that much related to moderate Southern Baptists is worthy of a financial contribution.