Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present Dange

The place to discuss politics and policy issues that are not directly related to matters of faith.

Moderator: Jon Estes

Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present Dange

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:24 am

https://www.greensboro.com/opinion/colu ... gHh2Yk4fU0 Meshes well with the alarms on William Barber
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 9403
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:29 pm

Re: Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present D

Postby KeithE » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:08 am

Stephen Fox wrote:Julie Peeples: A letter to our local church community Meshes well with the alarms on William Barber

Another great article Fox.

As the article ends - It is time!

It is past time to drop the separation of church and state. Evangelicals (as they are now defined) have dropped it long ago. History frowns on the churches in the time of Hitler’s Nazism. Trumpism is not identical to Nazism and not as pervasive as Nazism (yet). But it needs to be ended. Let Jesus’s teachings lead the way.

I’ll write more about what should be done in the coming days. Am busy right now.

But keep the article finding and posting up Fox.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9316
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present D

Postby William Thornton » Mon Feb 10, 2020 11:28 am

Part screed, part lame sound bite string.

And, the guy who puts Hitler/Nazi four times into a single paragraph probably needs a vacation.

Might explain what you mean by dropping the separation of church and state.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12542
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present D

Postby KeithE » Mon Feb 10, 2020 2:59 pm

William Thornton wrote:Part screed, part lame sound bite string.

Totally "lame sound bite string”. Screeds are longer.

William Thornton wrote:And, the guy who puts Hitler/Nazi four times into a single paragraph probably needs a vacation.

You probably need to read what I said and the differentiation I acknowledged between Trumpism and Hitler’s Nazism. My point related to the church being on the wrong side of history in the buildup of Nazism (Bonhoeffer being on the right side).

If you have not noticed, lately I'vee been less vocal than usual on BL. Vacation is over.

William Thornton wrote:Might explain what you mean by dropping the separation of church and state.

I’ll do that.

I should have said we should drop the separation of the “church” (both small c {church people}; and large C {denominations, parachurch orgs}) and "political reasoning" of what is best for people. But large C institutions should avoid endorsing a party or particular candidates and should not be reflexively anti-“gummint", angling instead for effective good government programs that help people (especially those that have worked elsewhere {e.g. universal, single payer health care that works well in 30 European countries}; but not universal basic income that did not work well in Finland).

Too often the church has been silenced (especially in Baptist circles by sticking to the "doctrine of the separation of church and state”). Of course politically RW “evangelicals” have been not been silent since the days of Jerry Falwell.

Can you at least acknowledge you understand what I (and Julie Peeples) are saying???

It is time that other Christians (less RW politically) speak up loudly (taking Jesus’s and biblical cues to care for the poor, and the sick, and the foreigner, against judgmental attitudes, and counter “empire”[/url}

Please avoid the quick, fact-free, argument-free, putoffs of whatever I post??? Argue back with the above links with more than putoffs, if you can.

William might love provoking me, but what do the majority of BLers think about that tactic. It is malicious and thus counter [url=http://www.baptistlife.com/forumpolicies.htm]forum rule 2.
I will respond to reasoned criticisms but William seldom does that in the political realm (which he does not study much) or the pervasive social justice message of the Bible and especially Jesus (which he ought to understand).
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9316
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present D

Postby William Thornton » Mon Feb 10, 2020 4:28 pm

The Peeples article was part screed and part a lame string of sound bites. The liberal churches have been intensely political (and partisan) for decades. It's just silly to write as if they have not. I'm fine with that. I am not obligated to conclude that the impassioned plea she makes is anything original. It's mostly boilerplate, warmed over stuff like we've heard for a long time. I understand what Peeples is saying. It's nothing new. Do you not understand that?

Is it lost on you that even with caveats and provisos, repeatedly putting Hitler/Nazi in is a silly attempt to connect Evangelicals (undefined, of course) with them? This is an old rhetorical technique. I'm sure a smart guy like you is familiar with it.

Your explanation of church and state is all opinion. Has nothing to do with the constitutional issue normally meant when using the phrase. Your links merely attempt to support your opinion. Concrete public policy matters are not theology, but politics. If you want a theocracy where your version of what God wants is imposed through public policy, then have at it. God wants Medicare for all? God wants this or that immigration policy? God wants this taxation level, this welfare level, etc. You are hopelessly incoherent here.

There is not now nor should there ever be any law against any big C, little c, parachurch, pastor, imam, rabbi endorsing any candidate. All of these may endorse candidates, advocate for various public policy measures, and the like.

Old friend, you are at your worst when you start whining about forum policies. I suggest you respond if you wish or ignore if you wish. No one forces you to do either.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12542
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present D

Postby KeithE » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:31 pm

William Thornton wrote:The Peeples article was part screed and part a lame string of sound bites. The liberal churches have been intensely political (and partisan) for decades. It's just silly to write as if they have not. I'm fine with that. I am not obligated to conclude that the impassioned plea she makes is anything original. It's mostly boilerplate, warmed over stuff like we've heard for a long time. I understand what Peeples is saying. It's nothing new. Do you not understand that?

Is it lost on you that even with caveats and provisos, repeatedly putting Hitler/Nazi in is a silly attempt to connect Evangelicals (undefined, of course) with them? This is an old rhetorical technique. I'm sure a smart guy like you is familiar with it.

Your explanation of church and state is all opinion. Has nothing to do with the constitutional issue normally meant when using the phrase. Your links merely attempt to support your opinion. Concrete public policy matters are not theology, but politics. If you want a theocracy where your version of what God wants is imposed through public policy, then have at it. God wants Medicare for all? God wants this or that immigration policy? God wants this taxation level, this welfare level, etc. You are hopelessly incoherent here.

There is not now nor should there ever be any law against any big C, little c, parachurch, pastor, imam, rabbi endorsing any candidate. All of these may endorse candidates, advocate for various public policy measures, and the like.

Old friend, you are at your worst when you start whining about forum policies. I suggest you respond if you wish or ignore if you wish. No one forces you to do either.


Now the above quote is an example of a putdownish screed. Only the fourth paragraph lacks the accusatory “you” with words like “lost”, “silly", “theocracy” supporting, “incoherent”, and “whining” thrown directed at me - see red above. And words like “lame”, “silly”, “partisan”,” mostly boilerplate”, “warmed-over stuff" applied to Julie Peeples - see green above. It may be “nothing new”, but times mandate her plea be reconsidered anew. Her suggestions are good and appropriate:
Identify your congregation’s core values. What are you passionate about? What current critical issues intersect with those values? Start there.

Learn together: Listen to/read well-reasoned, thoughtful opinions that differ from yours. Humility is a spiritual virtue.

Use Scripture with integrity, not as a weapon.

Create safe spaces in your faith community where people can share their deepest concerns and ask tough questions without feeling attacked, shamed or shunned.

Center the voices of those directly impacted by current policies.

Pray more than you ever have before.

Make space for nuance and complexity. Go deeper than sound bites and bumper stickers. Refrain from reducing everything to a binary — GOP versus Dems, conservative versus liberal.

Recognize the complicity of white Christians in many of the evils we are now confronting. Vow to make amends.

Don’t stay neutral. Take a stand, be clear why you take that stand.

Take action. Silence is acquiescence, so don’t just study and discuss. Be public. Take a risk.



About that fourth paragraph in William’s post, I will agree with him when talking about “advocating for various public policy measures”. But I mildly disagree about "endorsing any candidate” or party from the pulpit or the church hallway flyer desk - let the voter choose. I say “mildly” because I would not go so far as ending tax exemption for the casual endorser; but repeat offenders who have been warned or are mostly about politics (not religion), I'd say end their tax exemption. Comprende?

The Peeples article is more pastoral, instructive and mildly militant (appropriately so, imo) in tone.

My post attempts to provide links to facts/scripture/related political experience/DATA to support a positive agenda to help the common good. I can’t make you read and consider the material therein, but it would be good if you show that you have done so before screeding.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9316
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present D

Postby Sandy » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:40 pm

William Thornton wrote: The Peeples article was part screed and part a lame string of sound bites. The liberal churches have been intensely political (and partisan) for decades. It's just silly to write as if they have not. I'm fine with that. I am not obligated to conclude that the impassioned plea she makes is anything original. It's mostly boilerplate, warmed over stuff like we've heard for a long time. I understand what Peeples is saying. It's nothing new. Do you not understand that?


Did you actually read it? My first guess would be that no, you didn't, but your automatic Southern Baptist "We are closest to the Bible" mode kicked in when it was noted that Peeples is a United Church of Christ pastor. Change the gender of the author and the denomination from UCC to SBC and we would have a completely different evaluation from you of the content. Change the name to a recognized and fairly well known SBC resurgence supporter with a twenty year old photo and run the same article on SBC Voices and most of the comments would be favorable.

William Thornton wrote: Is it lost on you that even with caveats and provisos, repeatedly putting Hitler/Nazi in is a silly attempt to connect Evangelicals (undefined, of course) with them? This is an old rhetorical technique. I'm sure a smart guy like you is familiar with it.


That's Keith's choice of an example. But it is a comparison I have seen elsewhere, more frequently than I've seen it used in discussions and conversations before. If it's overused, that in and of itself says something about it.

William Thornton wrote: Your explanation of church and state is all opinion. Has nothing to do with the constitutional issue normally meant when using the phrase. Your links merely attempt to support your opinion. Concrete public policy matters are not theology, but politics. If you want a theocracy where your version of what God wants is imposed through public policy, then have at it. God wants Medicare for all? God wants this or that immigration policy? God wants this taxation level, this welfare level, etc. You are hopelessly incoherent here.


I would ask what you mean when you say "the constitutional issue normally meant when using the phrase," but I don't think the answer would be what it normally, or in a better context, what is actually means. It certainly doesn't mean exchanging the votes of its members for goodie bags full of government handouts and favors doing work that the church used to depend on the Holy Spirit to get done.
Sandy
 

Trump Unchained

Postby Stephen Fox » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:11 am

Rachel Maddow raises two chilling questions tonight on her show: Is there any bottom to Trump's assault on the rule of law? Is there anything you can imagine him NOT doing if it's to his benefit even if he knows it would hurt the country? The answer is, no of course not. There is no bottom; there is no limit. When he says he wants to be president for life, believe him. When his political party blocks all measures to prevent foreign interference in the next election, understand that they want such interference on behalf of Donald Trump. When Trump sets out to exact revenge against honorable and honest public servants who did not lie on his behalf, know that he will not stop. This is where we are.

Which raises the second major question: How do we survive these times? One answer is to work like hell to prevent Trump's reelection. But what if his political party gets its way and there is no free and fair election in 2020? What if, let's just say, Trump loses by a small margin and refuses to abide by the results? What if he is, by hook or crook, reelected? How do we prevent every vestige of democracy from being swept aside? How do we preserve some communal sense of decency? How do we stay sane? These are the questions we now must consider. It's a scenario that sounds apocalyptic. But I'm pretty sure Rachel Maddow is right.

The quote aoove from the facebook wall of Frye Galliard this morning, a former columnist and r religion writer for Carlotte Observer
"I'm the only sane {person} in here." Doyle Hargraves, Slingblade
"Midget, Broom; Helluva campaign". Political consultant, "Oh, Brother..."


http://www.foxofbama.blogspot.com or google asfoxseesit
Stephen Fox
 
Posts: 9403
Joined: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:29 pm

Re: Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present D

Postby William Thornton » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:28 am

Stephen has always been attracted to wild conjecture when it fits his frenetic thinking. We have a recent history of not accepting election results. Hil, Abrams here in Georgia. Complaining about districting, polling places, and voter rolls is just standard political talk. Maddox is paid to entertain with such talk.
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12542
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present D

Postby Dave Roberts » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:06 am

The political ways of churches has long been alive. In the early part of the 20th century with the industrialization of the more rural parts of NC, churches were complicit in siding with owners against the laboring classes, in helping hold people down. Often, especially in company towns, even the church buildings were the property of the mill and were not to criticize the excesses they saw, even of the KKK in their membership. In the 1950's and 60's, churches were strongly in support of societal order by supporting Jim Crow laws. Ministers who spoke against such things were soon removed. When it was "the solid South" for Democrats, the churches were often the assembly place you might see you politician visiting in worship and giving glad-hands in the parking lot. Ministers were often on the platforms at political rallies as chaplains of various political groups. In much of the old South, the cry for enforcing "separation of church and state" became much stronger when African-American churches became the centers for school desegregation, labor organizing, and the base for Black politicians. Baptists have always supported the separation of church and state on paper, but certainly not in reality.
"God will never be less than He is and does not need to be more" (John Koessler)

My blog: http://emporiadave.wordpress.com/
User avatar
Dave Roberts
Site Admin
 
Posts: 7649
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:01 pm
Location: Southside, VA

Re: Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present D

Postby KeithE » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:49 am

Dave Roberts wrote:The political ways of churches has long been alive. In the early part of the 20th century with the industrialization of the more rural parts of NC, churches were complicit in siding with owners against the laboring classes, in helping hold people down. Often, especially in company towns, even the church buildings were the property of the mill and were not to criticize the excesses they saw, even of the KKK in their membership. In the 1950's and 60's, churches were strongly in support of societal order by supporting Jim Crow laws. Ministers who spoke against such things were soon removed. When it was "the solid South" for Democrats, the churches were often the assembly place you might see you politician visiting in worship and giving glad-hands in the parking lot. Ministers were often on the platforms at political rallies as chaplains of various political groups. In much of the old South, the cry for enforcing "separation of church and state" became much stronger when African-American churches became the centers for school desegregation, labor organizing, and the base for Black politicians. Baptists have always supported the separation of church and state on paper, but certainly not in reality.

Thanks Dave. I sometime think RW religious groups only got “political” after Jerry Falwell in 1980. Conservative, moderate and liberal churches have long used religious persuasion (as they should, imo). Think of abolitionists.

But I do think the 1990 Christian Coalition’s Voters Guide distributed through churches (which endorsed candidates and was very partisan) represented a notch up in using church institutions for political aims.
Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
User avatar
KeithE
Site Admin
 
Posts: 9316
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 8:02 pm
Location: Huntsville, AL

Re: Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present D

Postby William Thornton » Thu Feb 13, 2020 9:49 am

KeithE wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:The political ways of churches has long been alive. In the early part of the 20th century with the industrialization of the more rural parts of NC, churches were complicit in siding with owners against the laboring classes, in helping hold people down. Often, especially in company towns, even the church buildings were the property of the mill and were not to criticize the excesses they saw, even of the KKK in their membership. In the 1950's and 60's, churches were strongly in support of societal order by supporting Jim Crow laws. Ministers who spoke against such things were soon removed. When it was "the solid South" for Democrats, the churches were often the assembly place you might see you politician visiting in worship and giving glad-hands in the parking lot. Ministers were often on the platforms at political rallies as chaplains of various political groups. In much of the old South, the cry for enforcing "separation of church and state" became much stronger when African-American churches became the centers for school desegregation, labor organizing, and the base for Black politicians. Baptists have always supported the separation of church and state on paper, but certainly not in reality.

Thanks Dave. I sometime think RW religious groups only got “political” after Jerry Falwell in 1980. Conservative, moderate and liberal churches have long used religious persuasion (as they should, imo). Think of abolitionists.

But I do think the 1990 Christian Coalition’s Voters Guide distributed through churches (which endorsed candidates and was very partisan) represented a notch up in using church institutions for political aims.


Voter guides crossed lines that A-A churches never crossed? Ever hear of "walking around money?"
My stray thoughts on SBC stuff may be found at my blog, SBC Plodder
User avatar
William Thornton
Site Admin
 
Posts: 12542
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:30 pm
Location: Atlanta

Re: Trump Unchained

Postby Sandy » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:01 am

Stephen Fox wrote:Rachel Maddow raises two chilling questions tonight on her show: Is there any bottom to Trump's assault on the rule of law? Is there anything you can imagine him NOT doing if it's to his benefit even if he knows it would hurt the country? The answer is, no of course not. There is no bottom; there is no limit. When he says he wants to be president for life, believe him. When his political party blocks all measures to prevent foreign interference in the next election, understand that they want such interference on behalf of Donald Trump. When Trump sets out to exact revenge against honorable and honest public servants who did not lie on his behalf, know that he will not stop. This is where we are.

Which raises the second major question: How do we survive these times? One answer is to work like hell to prevent Trump's reelection. But what if his political party gets its way and there is no free and fair election in 2020? What if, let's just say, Trump loses by a small margin and refuses to abide by the results? What if he is, by hook or crook, reelected? How do we prevent every vestige of democracy from being swept aside? How do we preserve some communal sense of decency? How do we stay sane? These are the questions we now must consider. It's a scenario that sounds apocalyptic. But I'm pretty sure Rachel Maddow is right.

The quote aoove from the facebook wall of Frye Galliard this morning, a former columnist and r religion writer for Carlotte Observer


All valid questions and valid points. Most people knew that Trump was a con man and a crook before he ever threw his hat in the ring the first time. Most people never took his candidacy seriously. Rush Limbaugh, who knew how to turn political differences into blind, ugly hatred, figured out how to mix Trump, the consummate American rich guy who buys his way out of paying for his crimes, with the inflamed white supremacy and racism of the white Evangelical right and prevent the traditional GOP candidates waiting in line from stopping it. The love of money is, as the Bible says, the root of all evil and that is what drives the Trump train.

We are about to see who the real patriots are.
Sandy
 

Re: Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present D

Postby Haruo » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:01 pm

What the Democrats need is a really skilled foreign government to step up and flip it. Germany maybe? We (the old we) worked well with them all these years stealing secrets from everybody else via Cipher.
Haruo (呂須•春男) = ᎭᎷᎣ = Leland Bryant Ross
Repeal the language taxLearn and use Esperanto
Fremont Baptist ChurchMy hymnblog
User avatar
Haruo
Site Admin
 
Posts: 13104
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2004 7:21 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: Awakening of NC Churches Re Trump as clear and present D

Postby Sandy » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:08 pm

Haruo wrote:What the Democrats need is a really skilled foreign government to step up and flip it. Germany maybe? We (the old we) worked well with them all these years stealing secrets from everybody else via Cipher.


: - )

That'd be my pick. Maybe Japan could help with the technology.
Sandy
 


Return to Politics and Public Policy Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron