Next Dem debate, all white.

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Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:43 am

The party of diversity, eh? Dems made the rules which require certain poll results. Too bad ordinary citizens have a say in this. The billionaire Steyer gets in. Two really old white dudes lead the field.

Too bad tulsi misses this one. Bloomberg should spend more money. Candidate from the outer limits, Williamson, is too far out it seems. The angry Booker is too busy with impeachment. No wait, Nancy is holding this in her pocket. Nothing for senators to do. And could Yang go ahead and send me my $10k? I’d like to take a cruise this year.

Gonna be an exciting year.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:53 am

The blunderbuss technique. Shoot a pattern so broad you hope it might hit something, but it doesn't.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:13 am

Dave Roberts wrote:The blunderbuss technique. Shoot a pattern so broad you hope it might hit something, but it doesn't.


Every. Single. Assertion. in my short post was a fact, Dave. Reject them all. Fine by me.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby KeithE » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:40 am

William Thornton wrote:The party of diversity, eh? Dems made the rules which require certain poll results. Too bad ordinary citizens have a say in this. The billionaire Steyer gets in. Two really old white dudes lead the field.

Too bad tulsi misses this one. Bloomberg should spend more money. Candidate from the outer limits, Williamson, is too far out it seems. The angry Booker is too busy with impeachment. No wait, Nancy is holding this in her pocket. Nothing for senators to do. And could Yang go ahead and send me my $10k? I’d like to take a cruise this year.

Gonna be an exciting year.

Looks like a old white dude got up on the wrong side of the bed.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:58 am

KeithE wrote:
William Thornton wrote:The party of diversity, eh? Dems made the rules which require certain poll results. Too bad ordinary citizens have a say in this. The billionaire Steyer gets in. Two really old white dudes lead the field.

Too bad tulsi misses this one. Bloomberg should spend more money. Candidate from the outer limits, Williamson, is too far out it seems. The angry Booker is too busy with impeachment. No wait, Nancy is holding this in her pocket. Nothing for senators to do. And could Yang go ahead and send me my $10k? I’d like to take a cruise this year.

Gonna be an exciting year.

Looks like a old white dude got up on the wrong side of the bed.


You're half right.

I'm having fun here. You can't make this stuff up.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby KeithE » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:45 am

William Thornton wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:The blunderbuss technique. Shoot a pattern so broad you hope it might hit something, but it doesn't.


Every. Single. Assertion. in my short post was a fact, Dave. Reject them all. Fine by me.


Really now William. Only straight facts are in red below (and are mostly unremarkable - Steyer getting in deserves mention). Lot of sarcasm and opinion in there.

The party of diversity, eh? Dems made the rules which require certain poll results. Too bad ordinary citizens have a say in this. The billionaire Steyer gets in. Two really old white dudes lead the field.

Too bad tulsi misses this one. Bloomberg should spend more money. Candidate from the outer limits, Williamson, is too far out it seems. The angry Booker is too busy with impeachment. No wait, Nancy is holding this in her pocket. Nothing for senators to do. And could Yang go ahead and send me my $10k? I’d like to take a cruise this year.

Gonna be an exciting year.


OK two really old white dudes are among the 4 leading candidates - I’ll call your statement a misstated fact, which could be made a fact if you found and linked a poll that had Sanders and Biden ranked 1 and 2.

Nothing for Senators to do??? How about over 400 bills sitting in McConnell’s inbox perverting the whole purpose of Congress.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Haruo » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:06 pm

But it's the principle of the thing. The Party of Diversity's rules are designed to do the sort of thing that GOP state houses have been accustomed to accomplish by gerrymandering. Williamson has put her campaign in neutral, but it seems to me Tulsi and Yang, and maybe Booker, ought to be in there. Though where and how DO you draw the line?
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Sandy » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:29 pm

William Thornton wrote: You're half right.

I'm having fun here. You can't make this stuff up.


Looks to me like you made everything up except who is actually in the debate. You forgot to include the fact that anyone on the Democratic debate stage or in the primary field will be our next President. That's a fun fact you left out.

Actually Bloomberg and Steyer are helping the Democrats with a lot more than their own presence. Each of them gave a Billion to the DNC's fall campaign war chest.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:29 pm

The biggest thing, William, was your omission. The GOP is cancelling its primaries for fear someone might overturn the POTUS. I'll take the mess the DNC primary systems is leaving compared with the GOP's departure from democracy.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby William Thornton » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:22 pm

Sandy wrote:
William Thornton wrote: You're half right.

I'm having fun here. You can't make this stuff up.


Looks to me like you made everything up except who is actually in the debate. You forgot to include the fact that anyone on the Democratic debate stage or in the primary field will be our next President. That's a fun fact you left out.

Actually Bloomberg and Steyer are helping the Democrats with a lot more than their own presence. Each of them gave a Billion to the DNC's fall campaign war chest.


My old friend loves future ‘facts.’ President Hil was one of those.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby KeithE » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:26 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:The biggest thing, William, was your omission. The GOP is cancelling its primaries for fear someone might overturn the POTUS. I'll take the mess the DNC primary systems is leaving compared with the GOP's departure from democracy.

I for one believe the DNC nomination process is healthy.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Sandy » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:34 pm

William Thornton wrote:
Sandy wrote:
William Thornton wrote: You're half right.

I'm having fun here. You can't make this stuff up.


Looks to me like you made everything up except who is actually in the debate. You forgot to include the fact that anyone on the Democratic debate stage or in the primary field will be our next President. That's a fun fact you left out.

Actually Bloomberg and Steyer are helping the Democrats with a lot more than their own presence. Each of them gave a Billion to the DNC's fall campaign war chest.


My old friend loves future ‘facts.’ President Hil was one of those.


Well when that prediction was made, I wasn't factoring in the other candidate's cheating to win.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Sandy » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:03 pm

KeithE wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:The biggest thing, William, was your omission. The GOP is cancelling its primaries for fear someone might overturn the POTUS. I'll take the mess the DNC primary systems is leaving compared with the GOP's departure from democracy.

I for one believe the DNC nomination process is healthy.


There are a couple of things here that William conveniently leaves out. Candidates make their decisions to stay in or stop based on the money they are able to raise and on the signs of support they see through the early primaries. The debate stage has a set qualification based on money raised and polling numbers. It isn't the nomination. We're close enough to the first caucuses and primaries now that it will be voters who decide who goes on and who decides to drop.

The Democrats already broke the racial glass ceiling and Republicans are still twisting in the wind, contorting, seething and melting into the ground over it. The best president since the Vietnam War was a black man. Get over it. The Presidency is just one office. The Democrats have pulled racial minorities into the electoral process everywhere and their contingencies in state legislatures, governorships, Congress and the Senate reflects it. The votes of ethnic minorities in 2020 will go to whomever the Democrats nominate in percentages anywhere from 75% to 95% depending on the ethnic minority and their geographic location. Trump's behavior has pretty much guaranteed a higher, rather than lower, ethnic turnout for whomever the Democrats nominate. You can't take older, white, male, Southern Republican criticism of the Democratic debate field based on it's ethnic makeup seriously. That's a laugher. Look at the racist buffoon they're supporting.

I think the process is pretty healthy. Its based on vote totals. If you get 35% of the vote in a state, you get 35% of the delegates. In the GOP primaries, you can get 15% of the vote, but win all of the delegates in the state if no one else gets the same number as you.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Tim Bonney » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:40 am

Haruo wrote:But it's the principle of the thing. The Party of Diversity's rules are designed to do the sort of thing that GOP state houses have been accustomed to accomplish by gerrymandering. Williamson has put her campaign in neutral, but it seems to me Tulsi and Yang, and maybe Booker, ought to be in there. Though where and how DO you draw the line?


Yang and Booker I'd agree with. Tulsi is a Republican in Dems clothing.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Tim Bonney » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:42 am

Dave Roberts wrote:The biggest thing, William, was your omission. The GOP is cancelling its primaries for fear someone might overturn the POTUS. I'll take the mess the DNC primary systems is leaving compared with the GOP's departure from democracy.


Agreed! And how many persons of color are running things in the GOP William? The Dems have elected far more persons of color to congress than the GOP by far. (Not to mention the only black President so far.) Also of the four major candidates for the Dems one is a woman and another is part of the LGBTQ+ community. There is more than one kind of diversity.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Rvaughn » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:33 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:Tulsi is a Republican in Dems clothing.
Hardly.
For example:
"...an asylum process that reflects our values as a nation of immigrants, and include a path to legal status for DREAMers."
"In recent years, many states have taken initiative by legalizing marijuana, reforming drug laws and sentencing guidelines, and winding down the “War on Drugs.” Now it’s time for the federal government to do the same."
"...am wholly committed to abortion remaining safe, legal and rare. We must commit to defending a woman’s right to choose."
"...ensure all Americans have an inclusive, affordable healthcare plan...I support a single-payer system that will allow individuals to access private insurance if they choose."
"Should ‘green’ issues be an absolute priority for any government? I couldn’t agree more."
"Tulsi has received a 100% rating for her voting record in favor of LGBT legislation."
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Haruo » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:11 pm

Thanks, Robert. Point well made.

Rvaughn wrote:
Tim Bonney wrote:Tulsi is a Republican in Dems clothing.
Hardly.
For example:
"...an asylum process that reflects our values as a nation of immigrants, and include a path to legal status for DREAMers."
"In recent years, many states have taken initiative by legalizing marijuana, reforming drug laws and sentencing guidelines, and winding down the “War on Drugs.” Now it’s time for the federal government to do the same."
"...am wholly committed to abortion remaining safe, legal and rare. We must commit to defending a woman’s right to choose."
"...ensure all Americans have an inclusive, affordable healthcare plan...I support a single-payer system that will allow individuals to access private insurance if they choose."
"Should ‘green’ issues be an absolute priority for any government? I couldn’t agree more."
"Tulsi has received a 100% rating for her voting record in favor of LGBT legislation."
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Sandy » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:40 am

Whether a candidate made the debate stage or not doesn't have anything to do with the Democratic nomination. The numbers haven't really moved all that much since the first debate. It's the line-up of primaries and the outcome of those which will either boost the underdogs or confirm the more popular choices. People in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina will have the first say in who gets delegates, but all that's happened so far is that the top three or four have swapped positions in the lead. Klobuchar has moved up considerably as has Buttigieg. Steyer has also gained ground. Their advance has mainly been from picking up support from those who dropped. I'll be curious to see where Bloomberg winds up, given that he has outspent the entire field, even if you add in Trump, by a considerable amount.

Given that Jews, by racial definition, are not Caucasian, it is not an "all white" debate. It's a more diverse and representative field than the GOP has ever had, two women, two Jews by race, two Episcopalians (Steyer is Jewish by race but Episcopalian by faith), a Methodist, one United Church of Christ, one Catholic. Hard to criticize if you're using terms like "the party of faith." If you're looking at cultural backgrounds, you've got rural and urban, New England, the Atlantic coast, the upper Midwest, the West Coast, and experience from all levels of government and first time involvement.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby KeithE » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:44 pm

Sandy wrote:Whether a candidate made the debate stage or not doesn't have anything to do with the Democratic nomination. The numbers haven't really moved all that much since the first debate. It's the line-up of primaries and the outcome of those which will either boost the underdogs or confirm the more popular choices. People in Iowa, New Hampshire, Nevada and South Carolina will have the first say in who gets delegates, but all that's happened so far is that the top three or four have swapped positions in the lead. Klobuchar has moved up considerably as has Buttigieg. Steyer has also gained ground. Their advance has mainly been from picking up support from those who dropped. I'll be curious to see where Bloomberg winds up, given that he has outspent the entire field, even if you add in Trump, by a considerable amount.

Given that Jews, by racial definition, are not Caucasian, it is not an "all white" debate. It's a more diverse and representative field than the GOP has ever had, two women, two Jews by race, two Episcopalians (Steyer is Jewish by race but Episcopalian by faith), a Methodist, one United Church of Christ, one Catholic. Hard to criticize if you're using terms like "the party of faith." If you're looking at cultural backgrounds, you've got rural and urban, New England, the Atlantic coast, the upper Midwest, the West Coast, and experience from all levels of government and first time involvement.

Not to mention that the GOP dos not have “diversity” in ethnicity or in expressed political thought given Trump’s 92% “Trump approval” among Republican voters.

Many strains of differing opinions among the Dem's candidates - that is healthy; fear of crossing Trump (and thereby threatening success in primaries among the Republican candidates for Congress) - that is unhealthy.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Haruo » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:17 pm

Sandy wrote:Given that Jews, by racial definition, are not Caucasian, it is not an "all white" debate.

I was brought up to believe that most Jews are Caucasoid. There is not, as far as I can ascertain, any such thing as "racial definition" in any scientific sense, at least not a definition like the three races of Genesis or the four races I was raised to believe in. (Hamitic-Semitic-Japhetic / Caucasoid - Mongoloid - Negroid - Australoid, to be specific) And I was brought up to believe that "white" and "Caucasoid" were not exactly the same thing; for example, the Amharic speakers of Ethiopia (though not necessarily the speakers of other Ethiopian tongues) like Haile Selassie were held to be Caucasoid. Not white though.

Of course, Jews were not Aryan as the Nazis divvied things up, nor Teutonic, but I've never known the details of their theory, and in any event it's not current outside Neo-Nazi circles.

So Sandy, by racial definition, what are Jews if not white, in your estimation?
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Sandy » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:56 pm

Haruo wrote:
Sandy wrote:Given that Jews, by racial definition, are not Caucasian, it is not an "all white" debate.

I was brought up to believe that most Jews are Caucasoid. There is not, as far as I can ascertain, any such thing as "racial definition" in any scientific sense, at least not a definition like the three races of Genesis or the four races I was raised to believe in. (Hamitic-Semitic-Japhetic / Caucasoid - Mongoloid - Negroid - Australoid, to be specific) And I was brought up to believe that "white" and "Caucasoid" were not exactly the same thing; for example, the Amharic speakers of Ethiopia (though not necessarily the speakers of other Ethiopian tongues) like Haile Selassie were held to be Caucasoid. Not white though.

Of course, Jews were not Aryan as the Nazis divvied things up, nor Teutonic, but I've never known the details of their theory, and in any event it's not current outside Neo-Nazi circles.

So Sandy, by racial definition, what are Jews if not white, in your estimation?



I would say that racial Jews, Sephardim, are semitic. That's a different racial grouping than the origins of white Europeans. Of course, the Askenazi Jews have European origins as proselytes to the religious faith rather than the ethnic and racial identity. But being Semitic is different than being "white."
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Haruo » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:11 pm

Sandy wrote:
Haruo wrote:
Sandy wrote:Given that Jews, by racial definition, are not Caucasian, it is not an "all white" debate.

I was brought up to believe that most Jews are Caucasoid. There is not, as far as I can ascertain, any such thing as "racial definition" in any scientific sense, at least not a definition like the three races of Genesis or the four races I was raised to believe in. (Hamitic-Semitic-Japhetic / Caucasoid - Mongoloid - Negroid - Australoid, to be specific) And I was brought up to believe that "white" and "Caucasoid" were not exactly the same thing; for example, the Amharic speakers of Ethiopia (though not necessarily the speakers of other Ethiopian tongues) like Haile Selassie were held to be Caucasoid. Not white though.

Of course, Jews were not Aryan as the Nazis divvied things up, nor Teutonic, but I've never known the details of their theory, and in any event it's not current outside Neo-Nazi circles.

So Sandy, by racial definition, what are Jews if not white, in your estimation?



I would say that racial Jews, Sephardim, are semitic. That's a different racial grouping than the origins of white Europeans. Of course, the Askenazi Jews have European origins as proselytes to the religious faith rather than the ethnic and racial identity. But being Semitic is different than being "white."

Biblically, yes, they (and the Arabs, and a number of other groups) are Semites. But "white" is not a Biblical racial group. It's not a racial group at all, it's a skin tone group. Race involves a whole lot more than skin tone, which is a minor characteristic and not defining of a race. The Ainu are "white" but not Japhetic nor Caucasian/Caucasoid. But all of these are matters of social convention more than anything substantial. Again, in my opinion.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Sandy » Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:09 am

Haruo wrote:But all of these are matters of social convention more than anything substantial. Again, in my opinion.


Agreed. The Democrats are long past having to use their presidential nomination process to back up their claims to diversity. The wide variety of ethnic Americans and people of color who have increasingly voted Democratic in each succeeding election cycle is an arena in which the GOP can't compete. The Republican slurs about "socialism" stem from a prejudice that is particularly aimed at Latinos and African Americans and throwing around the term "welfare." I've seen social media posts openly circulating the belief among white conservatives that Latinos and African Americans are prone to socialism because the countries of the world where they are predominant are socialist and they can't exist in a society where they have to "work for a living." I guess, if you're a white, conservative, Evangelical Republican you are in a dilemma as far as the Jews go, since Israel is probably more socialist than any of the current Democratic candidates is advocating for the US, including Bernie.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby Haruo » Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:08 pm

But a fair number of the "Evangelical" Christians who are so pro-Israel and anti-socialism are not pro-Israel because they like Jews, nor because they want to use the present Jewish state as a role model for the US, but because it will hasten the Eschaton. As in criticizing Israel or advocating fair treatment for Arabs is a horrible thing to do because it puts a roadblock in the way of Jesus' planned return.
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Re: Next Dem debate, all white.

Postby KeithE » Tue Jan 14, 2020 6:34 pm

I think the DNC ought to have a second tier debate ASAP (perhaps allowing even those that have quit (Harris, Booker, Castro and others)) to join if they want to. They can then energize or "unsuspend” their campaigns according to debate success. Perhaps another second tier debate after that (May?).

Candidates may not even be debating what the most pressing issues will be nearer to the Nov timeframe. For instance climate or war in Middle East or yet more polarization or race relations or gun violence may heat up as issues and most of the best on those issues will have no voice (e.g. Insley for climate, Gabbarb for Middle East policy, Bullock for polarization or Harris/Booker/Castro for race relations or O’Rourke for gun violence). Heck maybe our nation will be experiencing a spiritual awakening in Spring this year and Williamson’s voice may resonate more.

Right now the issues being debated and driving polls (i.e. continuation in the race) are general progressiveness vs moderation vs monetary (TV ads) buy in with a bit of he said/she said thrown in. And likely Russian input as well.

In the future I'd say there should be no debates until March 15 of the year of the election year (July 15 being the DNC Convention) - 4 months for party picks and 3 2/3 months for Presidential pick (almost 8 months overall). This campaign will last from June 25,2019 to Nov 3,2020 (>15 months of curtailed governance)

Canada’s campaign durations are between 36 and 50 days. (that is < 2 months and it works fine).

The length of election campaigns can vary, but under the Elections Act, the minimum length of a campaign is 36 days and the maximum length of the campaign is 50 days.


Won’t happen, but that is my 2¢.
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