The “Unsung Hero” of Old North Baptist Church

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Re: The “Unsung Hero” of Old North Baptist Church

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:51 am

Sandy wrote:
Timothy Bonney wrote:And I certainly don't expect anyone to subscribe to my clearly non-Baptist views here.


The only views I've seen you express here that I would consider "non-Baptist" are related to church polity and organization.


I've not discussed it much here, but I do hold to the Methodist view of the sacraments. So that is also a difference. And I do a lot of infant baptisms.
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Re: The “Unsung Hero” of Old North Baptist Church

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:53 am

KeithE wrote:But Arminians also believe the future is fixed and thus any present time evangelism/exhortation is merely allusionary in affecting any salvific or ethical decisions of anyone.


Not really true for Wesleyan arminianism which is different from classic arminian thought. Wesley preached very strongly against predestinarian ideas.
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Re: The “Unsung Hero” of Old North Baptist Church

Postby Haruo » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:54 am

When you ask the infant if she renounces Satan and all his works and blandishments, how can you tell if she even understood you?
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Re: The “Unsung Hero” of Old North Baptist Church

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:00 pm

Haruo wrote:When you ask the infant if she renounces Satan and all his works and blandishments, how can you tell if she even understood you?


LOL. The parents reaffirm their own membership vows. The child is not asked to affirm the vows of their baptism until confirmation.

Also, the above isn't really in our vows like that.

To renounce the spiritual forces of wickedness, reject the evil powers of the world, and repent of their sin;
To accept the freedom and power God gives them to resist evil, injustice, and oppression;
To confess Jesus Christ as Savior, put their whole trust in his grace, and promise to serve him as their Lord;
To remain faithful members of Christ’s holy church and serve as Christ’s representatives in the world;
To be loyal to Christ through The United Methodist Church and do all in their power to strengthen its ministries;
To faithfully participate in its ministries by their prayers, their presence, their gifts, their service, and their witness;
To receive and profess the Christian faith as contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments.
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Re: The “Unsung Hero” of Old North Baptist Church

Postby Haruo » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:21 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:Also, the above isn't really in our vows like that.

I know, I was joshing you. I was reminded of a Sunday School teacher at Rose Hill Pres. can. 1970~72 who taught us about the different denominations, and said "The Catholics are wrong, because they claim the Pope is the direct descendant of Peter, but we know Peter was a Jew and the Pope is Italian.

I do think, though, that it's bad Christianity to mention the UMC in the baptismal vows. That's like inserting the DNCC into the Pledge of Allegiance. "Under God"was bad enough.
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Re: The “Unsung Hero” of Old North Baptist Church

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:55 pm

Haruo wrote:
I do think, though, that it's bad Christianity to mention the UMC in the baptismal vows. That's like inserting the DNCC into the Pledge of Allegiance. "Under God"was bad enough.


You can't tell from the above. But it is really two sets of vows. One is the basic baptismal affirmations. The other is your vows of commitment to the United Methodist Church and local church that you are a member of.

Remember that when you become a member of the local church in the UMC you also become a member of the national church. We are actually one church with local expressions. (not being congregational.)

The problem with a general baptism into the Church Universal is that doesn't really require you commitment to anything specific.
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Re: The “Unsung Hero” of Old North Baptist Church

Postby Haruo » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:29 pm

True, but it's still very biblical. The Candace's eunuch is the most (to my mind) outstanding example.
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Re: The “Unsung Hero” of Old North Baptist Church

Postby KeithE » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:18 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
KeithE wrote:But Arminians also believe the future is fixed and thus any present time evangelism/exhortation is merely allusionary in affecting any salvific or ethical decisions of anyone.


Not really true for Wesleyan arminianism which is different from classic arminian thought. Wesley preached very strongly against predestinarian ideas.


That is not my understanding. Nor is it the late Roger Olson's viewpoint (he was a significant spokesperson for Arminianism). He has explicitly denied the Open View (which is where the future is not fixed). Why I am not an open theist

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism
This discusses the differences between Classical Arminianism and Wesleyan Arminianism (and the fixation of futures events is not one those differences as you say above). Here they are:
John Wesley has historically been the most influential advocate for the teachings of Arminian soteriology. Wesley thoroughly agreed with the vast majority of what Arminius himself taught, maintaining strong doctrines of original sin, total depravity, conditional election, prevenient grace, unlimited atonement, and the possibility of apostasy.

Wesley departs from Classical Arminianism primarily on three issues:

Atonement
Wesley's atonement is a hybrid of the penal substitution theory and the governmental theory of Hugo Grotius, a lawyer and one of the Remonstrants. Steven Harper states, "Wesley does not place the substitionary element primarily within a legal framework...Rather [his doctrine seeks] to bring into proper relationship the 'justice' between God's love for persons and God's hatred of sin...it is not the satisfaction of a legal demand for justice so much as it is an act of mediated reconciliation."[43]
Possibility of apostasy
Wesley fully accepted the Arminian view that genuine Christians could apostatize and lose their salvation, as his famous sermon "A Call to Backsliders" clearly demonstrates. Harper summarizes as follows: "the act of committing sin is not in itself ground for the loss of salvation...the loss of salvation is much more related to experiences that are profound and prolonged. Wesley sees two primary pathways that could result in a permanent fall from grace: unconfessed sin and the actual expression of apostasy."[44] Wesley disagrees with Arminius, however, in maintaining that such apostasy was not final. When talking about those who have made "shipwreck" of their faith (1 Tim 1:19), Wesley claims that "not one, or a hundred only, but I am persuaded, several thousands...innumerable are the instances...of those who had fallen but now stand upright."[45]
Christian perfection
According to Wesley's teaching, Christians could attain a state of practical perfection, meaning a lack of all voluntary sin by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, in this life. Christian perfection (or entire sanctification), according to Wesley, is "purity of intention, dedicating all the life to God" and "the mind which was in Christ, enabling us to walk as Christ walked." It is "loving God with all our heart, and our neighbor as ourselves".[46] It is "a restoration not only to the favour, but likewise to the image of God," our "being filled with the fullness of God".[47] Wesley was clear that Christian perfection did not imply perfection of bodily health or an infallibility of judgment. It also does not mean we no longer violate the will of God, for involuntary transgressions remain. Perfected Christians remain subject to temptation, and have continued need to pray for forgiveness and holiness. It is not an absolute perfection but a perfection in love. Furthermore, Wesley did not teach a salvation by perfection, but rather says that, "Even perfect holiness is acceptable to God only through Jesus Christ."[48]


If you can provide any statements to the contrary, please provide.

Now I would be glad if Wesleyans or Methodists agreed with the Open View (let alone Oord’s particular view technically called “Essential Kenosis"); but that is not the case in any official manner (unless you can provide that).

This may be considered a nit-noid, but I see this as a very key element of theology.
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Re: The “Unsung Hero” of Old North Baptist Church

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:39 pm

KeithE wrote:
That is not my understanding. Nor is it the late Roger Olson's viewpoint (he was a significant spokesperson for Arminianism). He has explicitly denied the Open View (which is where the future is not fixed). Why I am not an open theist


I've read Roger. He is an interesting guy. I agree with a lot of his views. But he isn't a Methodist and doesn't speak for us. Methodists don't believe, as far as I've seen from nearly anyone, in a fixed future other than the God's final victory in Jesus Christ.

From the Confession of Faith of the UMC

Article XII — The Judgment and the Future State
We believe all men stand under the righteous judgment of Jesus Christ, both now and in the last day. We believe in the resurrection of the dead; the righteous to life eternal and the wicked to endless condemnation.
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Re: The “Unsung Hero” of Old North Baptist Church

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:44 pm

The following link might be helpful. https://wesleyanarminian.blogspot.com/2 ... m-and.html
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Re: The “Unsung Hero” of Old North Baptist Church

Postby Tim Bonney » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:01 pm

Rather than further derailing the thread, I'll start a new thread on Arminianism.
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