CBF dissent on the [Baptist] Conf on Sexuality and Covenant

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I'm calling bull here, Sandy.

Aside from Gushee who is listed as "convener" at about 5 different points, please identify which presenters that you are familiar with and demonstrate that they represent a "left" perspective.

I'm willing to bet that you don't know more than 25% of the names - if even that.

These aren't big names. There's no Bill Leonard; no George Mason.

So please, quit making assertions and throw out the names that you know and lets look at the names you don't know.

Only the most involved CBFers are going to know many of these names. And some won't know many of these names because they haven't led CBF workshops in the past, haven't spoken at CBF in the past, many are younger.

All is also is a moot point when - as Neil pointed out - this conference is going to deal with much more than homosexuality. At least a large chunk of these people aren't even going to touch the issue.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

These are the names:

Rick Bennett - Director of Missional Formation, CBF

David Gushee

Janell Paris - Messiah College professor

Guy Sayles - FBC Asheville

Sharyn Dowd

Coleman Fannin

Melissa Browning

Emily Holladay

Jennifer Crumpton

Roz Nichols

Rhonda Blevins

Cody Sanders

LeDayne Polaski

Wendell Griffen

Joy Yee

Pat Anderson

[Sandy]

These are the names that I know, besides Gushee---and from my perspective, would be "to the left" of the center of CBF--

Joy Yee, pastor of San Francisco's 19th Avenue Baptist Church, which I believe is a welcoming and affirming congregation as far as GLBT issues are concenrned.
LeDayne Polaski, of the Baptist Peace Fellowship of North America, an organization which was previously defunded by CBF because of its stance on homosexuality
Sharyn Dowd, Pastor of Decatur, GA FBC and Guy Sayles, pastor of FBC Asheville, NC, both uniquely aligned CBF churches on the left side of the fellowship
Coleman Fannin from Baylor, a name I recognize, not sure exactly what department he's from there.

I do not know Jennifer Crumpton or Cody Sanders. But I know that to pass the standard for being a D of C ordained minister, you can't be very conservative. I took classes at Brite Divinity School in Ft. Worth and it was far to the left back in the 80's. I doubt that it has changed, so I would guess that Mr. Sanders' perspective would reflect that. I don't know the name Emily Holliday, but if she's a student a McAfee School of Theology, that would also most likely help to discern her position. I believe Joshua Villines, who was in the past one of the more leftward leaning members of Baptistlife.com, was also a student there. They are related to Mercer, and their position in relation to the Baptist family at large is pretty clear.

Don't underestimate who I might know in CBF. I was in it for more than a decade, active, present at most of the General Assemblies as well as many of the state gatherings and conferences, including several on the East coast. I have met many of these people personally, including Gushee, Yee, Dowd and Sayles. For several years, my wife and I sat one pew behind Dr. Ken Chafin and his wife in worship. I could give you a fairly lengthy list of individuals connected to CBF and to the Alliance whom we've shared meals with.

I often reflected as Pastor Smith did, that it seemed that suddenly, CBF went from being a fellowship of churches opposed to the conservative resurgence, to embracing things which set them apart from churches that chose to remain in the SBC.

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

In all honesty, your sound like you might be happier in the SBC where prejudice and judgmentalism reign supreme.

Whenever anyone starts placing people as "left / right---conservative /liberal," I start wondering what is their definition of such and why try to put people at odds with one another when we might just be looking honestly at a give issue which is real and needs a good look.

Do you have the guts to go and see for yourself and give us a report?

Otherwise, it's just pure speculation on your part---from a position you already obviously enjoy.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

One of my bestfriends was a minister for about 5 years in San Francisco. She knew Joy Yee.

Joy Yee is not welcoming and affirming nor is her church.

In fact, Yee's church is one of the ONLY non-SBC Baptist churches in the Bay Area that is not welcoming & affirming.

Coleman Fannin is not welcoming & affirming. He has a couple of degrees from Baylor (Truett and Church-State) and I think teaches as an adjunct at Baylor, perhaps in the Great Texts program. His wife is in the phd program at Baylor. I presented a paper on a panel with her just a few weeks ago in Dallas. Coleman is also a former UGA alum like myself.

You aren't going to find a theologian at Baylor who is gay-affirming. That's just a fact. Coleman has a Phd in Theology from University of Dayton, a Catholic school. I suspect - based on what I know about Coleman and his views on community and orthodoxy - that he is heavily influenced by Catholic moral theology.

Now, moving on to Sayles and Dowd:

What makes these two on the "left side of the fellowship"? Are you contending that they are on the "left side" simply because their churches are uniquely aligned with the CBF???

You do realize that makes absolutely no sense.

I don't know Guy Sayles. His church - to my knowledge - has not in a formal way come out as gay-affirming.

But, I am more familiar with Sharyn Dowd. She's a former Baylor Religion prof and former minister at Calvary Baptist in Waco under JPR.

I have not known her to be gay-affirming. In fact, I remember attending a service at Calvary - when she helped plan the worship services - where an "ex-gay" gave his testimony on overcoming his struggles with homosexuality. That's not the kind of testimony you are going to hear at a gay-affirming church to say the least. Calvary then was not gay-affirming. Heck, I don't even think anyone would accuse Calvary of being even gay-friendly!

I'll give you Polaski. She represents the more liberal perspective of those 5 individuals.

I'll add that Joshua V. does not embody the perspective of the McAfee student body today. He'll tell you that. I think he's even criticized McAfee in the past along those lines.

Most schools are diverse; some more than others. You can't draw a conclusion about a student just because of where they go to school. McAfee has it's share of conservatives simply due to the fact that it is affordable with good scholarship money and conveniently located in big Atlanta.

Two of my best friends are McAfee alums. One is a lesbian and pastor in NC. The other pastors a small Southern Baptist church in a rural Atlanta suburb with no ties to CBF.

I remember going to Passport some years ago and two of the leaders were then current Southern Seminary students. One was a female. And of course, quite a few Truett students and alums serve or go on to serve uniquely aligned SBC churches.

You may have been involved a long-time ago. But you've been uninvolved for quite some time. Your assertions are based on your assumptions and associations (attends Mcafee therefore is liberal).

Who knows how many of these individuals will even address topics relating to same-sex anything.

Again, like I said earlier, Gushee has devoted much more of his academic career to the subject of divorce and covenant marriage than to homosexuality. That's his issue. I expect it will be front-and-center.

[Stephen Fox]

Have either Sandy or BDWeave read the book yet?
Who on this board beside me has read the book.

How much corridor talk at this convocation will center on the Trayvon Martin Crisis.
Who at the conference will be versed in Marilynne Robinson's thoughts in Absence of Mind.

Is the younger generation of the CBF running away too fast from all the great witness of the generation of Randall Lolleyand Bill Self; even Truett before them?

A note. March 26 at Furman, Scott Henderson, an openly gay proff there for the last 15 years, delivered the lecture What Really Matters, part of the L.D. Johnson commemoration lecture series.

Among his predecessors in the lecture series was Jeff Rogers, Hardy Clemons successor at FBC, Greenville.

One more suggestion for Gushee and all.

Hope one of the wise presenters there will be able to frame this conversation in the last 150 pages of Diarmaid MacCulloch's magisterial work on Christianity. I think that could add perspective not only for Thornton and Sandy, but Scarborough and Gushee as well

And BDWeaver; would be honored if you would take a look at my blog on Vestal, Elvis, Laura Bush and the ADF; in development; but click over now

[Gene Scarborough]

BDW---knowledge of people is a powerful thing. In a way I feel sorry for Sandy with "Foot in Mouth" disease!

Stephen---the name dropping is not impressive. Try to, once in a while, speak to the subject---if your can!

[Sandy]

I guess "to the left" has a lot to do where you are and where you draw the line. I tend to think, from my own experiences, not all that long ago, that most CBF churches that "ride the fence" with the SBC are going to be a lot closer to the SBC's view that the issue of homosexuality is pretty well settled in scripture, not requiring a whole lot of human interpretation or speculation, than anyone who thinks a conference on human sexuality should include at least some discussion on the matter. I would still contend that this conference represents what Luke Smith calls "a few loud, persistent voices" against the backdrop of theological perspective in CBF. We could very well be having this discussion about whether women should serve as pastors of churches, since few CBF congregations have moved in that direction as well. And I'm sure there are others who would look at it from that angle, and draw the same conclusion.

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

The best thing about CBF is that they are allowing for "dissenting voices!"

[William Thornton]

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

[KeithE]

[William Thornton]

Keith, The CBF is a minor (minor in size, not in importance) Baptist slpinter organization and no serious threat to anything about the SBC, so I'm not hoping for anything negative, although I do find developments interesting.

Along with not a few SBCers, I have long thought that the CBF would go down the same road as the other mainline denominations on some issues. I'm thinking that many CBFers are where Colleen Burroughs is on the issue of homosexuality. Her statements and reactions to it are indicative of some degree of divergence on the matter, as are the opinion pieces of Luke Smith that I linked in this topic.

The CBF news these days is all self-created. No one has to make these things up just to stir the pot.

...you can email Al Mohler about his hopes. I will be glad to share mine...if you ask.

[Sandy]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy----enjoy your misery being-----a biblioter!

You faith has hardly made your free and for that I'm real sorry.

[Sandy]

Yes, goodness, it's a whole lot easier to just rely on whatever principle of interpretation you want to in creating your own religion and studying your way through the Bible to justify it than it is to consider the fact that Jesus considered "the scriptures" of his day to be completely authoritative, and is part of the equation in their inspiration after his ascension.

Even if Jesus did come down firmly on some position or another, such as John 14:6, someone will explain it away by saying that those words really weren't his words. That's religion. You can have it.

Gene, I'm not sure what a "Biblioter" is, and I can't find the definition of it anywhere.

I think the last few posts you guys have put up here are a pretty clear example of the differences between the SBC and CBF, or at least some of CBF, and you've proven the contention of at least some of the leadership of the CR.

[Gene Scarborough]

Biblioloter: One who worships the printed word rather than the God who inspired that word.

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

It appears that you see the Bible as a level playing field with all things being on an equal footing.

Carter and I both see it as a mountain going up to the Gospels and all things after looking back with some variance in viewpoint depending on the letter writer or the story of the early Christians covered in Acts.

In this fashion we follow the guidelines of Southern Baptists before BF&M 2000. The statement then was the Bible is our guide and Christ is our creed. It was general, but specific enough to let Christ guide us over some creed made by man. That is what BF&M 2000 becomes---man made requirements not always following the spirit of Christ--particularly when it comes to women and their place in the faith.

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---

Now you are putting words into Carter's mouth!

You agree with Christ being the apex of the mountain, but can't hack that all is not equally inerrant---and with no mixture of error. Who decides when texts conflict which one is the "right one"

Any of us who have held a Nestle Greek Text and seen it's pages know the variants in the manuscripts. In several places the page contains 10% "reliable text" and 90% variant writings----so which one is the "inerrant word of God?" It is ludicrous to know the facts and use the "without error" description.

Inspired-----YES
Inerrant-----NO

Even the writers of the BF&M creed had to add "original manuscripts" to show they have some sense. Because we have not one single "origianal manuscript" the point is speculation ----so my professors at SEBTS were put through hell over something the fundies do not have!!!

Shame / foolishness / speculation / inquisition over cow manure

[Sandy]