Covenant Sound and Fury at Newsweek and WSJ

[Stephen Fox]

Robert Parham is maybe not outraged, but quite upset Sally Quinn and Berlinbleau of WashPost and Newsweek and Religion blog could get the Baptist Covenant in Atlanta so wrong.

Here are the 41 comments so far on Berlinbleau's blog there saying he had more respect for Richard Land in re the Covenant than the Covenant planners when it comes to politics.

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfa ... ments.html

And here is Parham's steam:

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=10068

Good news is Randall Balmer and Brent Walker are regular contributors to the Newsweek blog site. Let's hope they set the record straight and soon.

Newsweek's Jon Meacham is from Richard Land's hometown of Chattanooga, TN.

One upshot is with all this and the Huckabee campaign, maybe we can have Balmer and Land tour the country with Charles Marsh and Ginny Brant and get some of this straight.

As I have said before, Bill Friday got it right in 87 with his comment to Cecil Sherman.
Maybe Sally Quinn will understand by June. Let's hope so.
Tom Edsall of the Huffington Post knows the difference.

On Another note, Furman's Jim Guth is quoted in the front page story in NY Times today on Huckabee and McCain's struggle. Guth says matter of factly it is a Southern Baptist thing.

Maybe some of this will register with deacons at FBC Montgomery and Dawson Memorial and like churches who continue willy nilly to fund the Cooperative Program.
But I doubt it. The trick is on me and other crackers who thought literacy and Marshall Frady might make a difference. It's a paraphrase or parody of Flannery OConnor's wit about sin; maybe cynically is now as true of Robert Parham and me as it was for Flannery's assessment in the 40's.

[Stephen Fox]

Robert Parham makes me proud to be a literate Baptist, though he knows more about wine and cheese than I do.

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=10075

[Stephen Fox]

from Bill Leonard

Maybe this take will be a little more to Parham's liking

http://www.christiancentury.org/article.lasso?id=4478

[Prentice Fox]

The article that you cited above from Chris_Cen seemed to give a lot of attention to the fact that in spite of the diversity at NBC, the Baptist Pro-Gay groups were not invited. Bill Leonard said that it's not time to discuss that issue Yet.

[Stephen Fox]

And at your church, what was the report from the group who took your church van to Atlanta as you reported last week or whenever it was before your 10 day absence from this board.

[Prentice Fox]

There is no group report as of yet; and probably will not be. What was the group report from your church there in Collinsville? A couple of people who attended from here seemed to especially enjoy the music. Will there be another one next year? Or will it be another four years before NBC II ?? (as in presidential elections, etc.?) How much was your hotel room? Would a gift toward relief for Global Aids Crisis been a better investment?

[Ed Pettibone]

The article that you cited above from Chris_Chen seemed to give a lot of attention to the fact that in spite of the diversity at NBC, the Baptist Pro-Gay group was not invited. Bill Leonard said that it's not time time to discuss that issue Yet.

Ed: Prentice, all Baptist where invited to the NBC Celebration And the Alliance of Baptist which is not the only pro Gay Baptist group specifically was not invited to participate in the plan and design because of their stance on homosexuality is recognized as the single most divisive issue among some of the participating groups and this decision was made by the events sponsoring agency the North American Baptist Alliance of which the Alliance of Baptist is not a member. And in fact Many members of the Baptist Alliance did attend. As did many who belong to the Rainbow coalition.

And I am not convinced that the writer of the Christian Century article knew of what they where writing when he or she said; "Campolo scanned the crowd at the Georgia World Congress Center on the morning of January 31 and pegged it as 90 percent white. Around his neck he wore a brightly colored stole to show solidarity with gay and lesbian Baptists."

Tony did indeed comment on the scarcity of Blacks in the Wednesday morning session where he was preaching, and I am not sure why there where so few at that hour, but as the morning went on the numbers of blacks rose dramatically. I would say to at least 30 %. It is also true that Tony was wearing a coalition Stole, however he wore it under his Suit jacket with less than a quarter inch of one edge displayed. It looked more like a rainbow colored string of Mardi Gras beads. I have no doubt that Tony supports the original cause of the Rainbow coalition as promoted by the founder, Jesse Jackson, for the equality of all races. I also support that much of the coalitions agenda. But the last I heard Campolo speak to the issue of homosexuality was the end of June, last year at a combined session of CBF and ABC at our overlapping meetings in D.C. There he repeated what he had said in a video clip introducing Roy Medley our General Secretary at the Denver ABC-USA Biennial in 2005. that is, that he considers Homosexuality to be a sin But that he does not believe that it is an issue over which the ABC should split, as he put it He and his Wife disagree over the issue but they are not going to divorce over it. Peggy has been very out spoken in favor of the full equality of Gays and Lesbians when speaking in many public venues and she reiterated that, when Trudy and I where talking with her about our mutual friend who had ridden to the NBC celebration with us and who will be traveling with Tony on one of his up coming tours. Since Tony had a stroke on an airplane while traveling alone, about 4 years ago, Peggy is concerned about his traveling alone. She gets onto him about his heavy speaking schedule, but knows that saying no to an engagement, is also a strain on him.

[Stephen Fox]

How much does Nancy pay for her room?

You don't worry about my finances and I won't worry about yours.
The administrators have said repeatedly this is no place for your family taunts.

Thank-you

[Prentice Fox]

ED, you may be right that Adelle M. Banks, writer of the Christian Century article, is mistaken about the designation of Tony's Stole as being representative of supporting the homosexual lifestyle. I noticed that several of his/her comments were related to the Gay Issue. However, the author did mention that David Gushee regretted that SBC leaders stayed away. He reports that Gushee, like me, attends a church that supports both the SBC and the CBF.

[Stephen Fox]

From what I know of Gushee and his several testimonies of the last few days at abpnews.com there is no way to compare him to you.
His pilgrimage is of a higher order altogether, and he has born clear witness to the wrongs of Mohler and the conservative resurgence by example and experience.

[Prentice Fox]

Stephen, you are grossly,intentionally or errantly, mistaken. I was not comparing Gushee to me in my post above. I was simply quoting the Century article in saying that the church he attended supported both the SBC and CBF.(just like mine.) Read it again. I believe you missed the point. Dually aligned, is what we call it. Several local churches here do that, supporting both Richard Land and Daniel Vestal. How do they do it there in Alabama?

[Ed Pettibone]

Stephen you may do well to take to yourself the advice you gave Prentice a few post back. It is not just the BL.C staff that are fed up with the Fox Version of Family Feud.

[Stephen Fox]

in all due respect, I think it is you who are a little shallow in this exchange.
My point is Gushee is charting a course that tweaks in the most virtuous way, the pilgrimage of even Adrian Rogers son David and others of the Memphis Declaration.
To compare as Prentice does, Richard Land to Dan Vestal, as having equal virtue, I think is a gross distortion of what is wrong with too many congregations that should do better with their Coop Program distribution.
I don't speak for then, but I have every reason to believe Bruce Gourley is troubled by that as is Tony Cartledge and Buddy Shurden.
On the virtue spectrum Dan Vestal is of much higher value than Richard Land; and Gushee laughably trumps Al Mohler.
That is not so much a family spat between me and Prentice as it is something that troubles too many of us.
I wish you could understand that, EdP

Sfox

[Big Daddy Weaver]

For what it's worth, the rainbow stole that Tony Campolo was apparently wearing and what many other ministers at the ABC-USA/CBF joint session wore this summer had absolutely nothing to do Jesse Jackson and his Rainbow/PUSH Coalition.

In the context of the NBC and this summer's ABC-USA/CBF gathering, the rainbow symbolized gay pride not Jesse Jackson's dying (if not nearly dead) political movement. Today the rainbow almost always symbolizes gay pride.

[Ed Pettibone]

For what it's worth, the rainbow stole that Tony Campolo was apparently wearing and what many other ministers at the ABC-USA/CBF joint session wore this summer had absolutely nothing to do Jesse Jackson and his Rainbow/PUSH Coalition.

In the context of the NBC and this summer's ABC-USA/CBF gathering, the rainbow symbolized gay pride not Jesse Jackson's dying (if not nearly dead) political movement. Today the rainbow almost always symbolizes gay pride.

Ed: Aaron what do you mean by the stole that Tony was "apparently wearing" ?
Where you there? And by the way not all who where wearing such stoles at the ABC-USA/CBF joint Session and at the NBC celebration where ministers. And I would estimate that at either event their where not more than 150 wearing the rainbow stoles and I did not see any CBFer that I know wearing one. As I alo mentioned previously mentioned Peggy Campolo was wearing one quite prominently when Trudy and I spoke with her. And most of the one Tony was wearing when he spoke was hidden by his suit coat. Peggy is very out spoken in her support of Gays and Lesbians and Tony is just as outspoken about homosexual practice being a sin. And as I said before he says although they differ on the subject they are not about to divorce over it, nor does he belive the ABC-USA should split over it.

Unfortunately today a rainbow symbol is to often indicative of the gay pride movement. However some of us used it as a symbol of diversity and as a symbol of God's promise, long before it was usurped by the homosexual community and their supporters.

Here is a comment that expresses my feelings. I took from a Take back the Rainbow site;

I think that rainbows are awsome and they are pretty and I also would like to wear a shirt or a sticker on my car without people thinking Im gay it's not fair that they can use a symbol like that if you want to be gay be gay but give us back the rainbow and think of something else. I know they have the mentality to come up with something other then a rainbow give it back to the people.

[Mark]

For what it's worth, the rainbow stole that Tony Campolo was apparently wearing and what many other ministers at the ABC-USA/CBF joint session wore this summer had absolutely nothing to do Jesse Jackson and his Rainbow/PUSH Coalition...

I'm not doubting you BDiddy, but just wondering: How do you know? Was Campolo protesting the exclusion of the Alliance of Baptists from co-sponsorship of New Baptist Covenant, or making some other statement? The reason I ask is because I've always understood that Tony and his wife have different viewpoints.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I stepped out during Tony's speech.

The rainbow stole represents that the person wearing it supports the full inclusion of Gay and Lesbian persons as members of the Church. The rainbow stole is symbolic of the hope of gays, lesbians, and their straight-allies to be a church which welcomes and affirms all persons, regardless of sexual orientation.

Since I wrote my original post, I double checked what I wrote with my friend, Angela Yarber, who is involved in AWAB, BPFNA, and is dancing at the upcoming Alliance of Baptists Convocation. She's a minister, she wears the rainbow stole during special occasions, and she lives in Berkeley where she's getting a Ph.D. that has required courses in Queer Theology. She confirmed what I wrote.

Maybe there is the slight chance that Tony was supporting a political movement with his rainbow stole. Anything is possible. But for what other purpose than what I've stated above have you ever seen a minister or layperson wear a rainbow stole? From my time working with John Lewis, I became familiar with Rainbow/PUSH (Lewis is not involved with that group). But I've never seen a leader of Rainbow/PUSH wear a rainbow stole. I've never seen Jesse Jackson wear a rainbow stole. They do use the rainbow as a symbol of multiculturalism and have done so since before the LGBT community made it their most popular symbol.

I've heard Tony and his wife Peggy speak on the subject of homosexuality. From what I understand, they address that subject quite often (or used to). It is also my understanding that Tony's view of homosexuality is a bit more nuanced than many of our Baptist brethren. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe he recognizes that not all Americans have the same sexual orientation. However, he calls on gay and lesbian Christians to live a life of celibacy. I think he even says that gays and lesbians can have life-long committed partners. Since he believes the act of homosexual sex to be a sin, he calls on those same-sex partners to remain celibate. I just don't see any evidence to suggest that Tony's rainbow stole had anything to do with Jackson's RAINBOW/PUSH.

Ed,

I commend you in your efforts to take back the rainbow. Wear the rainbow proudly.

The rainbow should be for all peoples. Back when I was but a mere freshmen at the University of Georgia, a very very pretty girl handed me a rainbow button to wear as I stood silently waiting for my roommate to pick me up at the Tate Center. Since, she was wearing the button and was very nice to me, I pinned the rainbow button on my shirt. We continued to have a nice conversation and a few of her friends joined in. All were wearing the rainbow. But UGA is a typical University. People are always protesting or handing out literature on some injustice. Thus, I didn't think twice about the rainbow. I didn't have a clue.

To make a long story short, a somewhat blurry picture (blurry, that's what I told myself) of Bdiddy ended up in the Red & Black (UGA's Student Newspaper) the next day. Those nice girls handing out the Rainbow buttons were celebrating National Coming Out Day of which I unknowingly participated in. I must admit I was a little spacey back then. I had come from a small town to Athens. I can't say that I personally knew a gay guy or lesbian growing up in Vidalia, Georgia.

The fall-out wasn't too bad. Only a few girls asked me - "Why Didn't You Tell Us!" Later at UGA, I did make friends through the Young Dems that were gay. Looking back, I'm glad that experience with the rainbow button didn't turn me into a homophobe. But I likely will never pin on a rainbow button or fly the rainbow flag anytime soon. So, I can't join you Ed in your endeavor.

[Ed Pettibone]

Aaron Weaver writes in part;

I stepped out during Tony's speech.

The rainbow stole represents that the person wearing it supports the full inclusion of Gay and Lesbian persons as members of the Church. The rainbow stole is symbolic of the hope of gays, lesbians, and their straight-allies to be a church which welcomes and affirms all persons, regardless of sexual orientation.

Ed: A rainbow stole represents what ever the wearer may intend for it to mean although others may interpret it to mean what ever they chose.

When I was in high school, probably before your parents day, wearing yellow on Thursdays was supposed to signify that one was gay. However there was an older tradition at our school that seniors fellows wore yellow cords every day.( Yes that is every day, not just any day) Underclass interlopers risked getting striped to their shorts. BTW, you may want to note that what Tony delivered during the Thursday morning session is listed in the official program as the sermon for that session. Sermon = a religious discourse delivered in public usually by a clergy-person as a part of a worship service. It was a worship service and Tony is an ordained ABC-USA clergyman

And I note you have yet to speak to the fact that Tony wore the stole under his suit coat and it barley peeked out. You can verify that with any of the 5,500 or so people who where there during that time.

[Haruo]

And if you go to a Klan rally wearing a white pointy ghost hood and subsequently tell people that you wore it to express solidarity with the starving Armenians... well, that may be...

Haruo
who is not trying to suggest any connection between Ed, Tony, BDiddy, gays, Jesse, and/or Armenian nutritional levels and the KKK, it was a random illustration

[KeithE]

Aaron Weaver writes in part;

I stepped out during Tony's speech.

The rainbow stole represents that the person wearing it supports the full inclusion of Gay and Lesbian persons as members of the Church. The rainbow stole is symbolic of the hope of gays, lesbians, and their straight-allies to be a church which welcomes and affirms all persons, regardless of sexual orientation.

Ed: A rainbow stole represents what ever the wearer may intend for it to mean although others may interpret it to mean what ever they chose.

When I was in high school, probably before your parents day, wearing yellow on Thursdays was supposed to signify that one was gay. However there was an older tradition at our school that seniors fellows wore yellow cords every day.( Yes that is every day, not just any day) Underclass interlopers risked getting striped to their shorts. BTW, you may want to note that what Tony delivered during the Thursday morning session is listed in the official program as the sermon for that session. Sermon = a religious discourse delivered in public usually by a clergy-person as a part of a worship service. It was a worship service and Tony is an ordained ABC-USA clergyman

And I note you have yet to speak to the fact that Tony wore the stole under his suit coat and it barley peeked out. You can verify that with any of the 5,500 or so people who where there during that time.

Yes you could only barely see teh rainbow scarf but I did notice it and knew what it stood for. It was no doubt deliberate.

Previously I have heard at the Charlotte CBF (and read in one of his books) that Tony believes in full inclusion in the church for Gays/Lesbians but that homosexuality is a sin. His wife however believes homosexuality is not necessarily a sin. At least that is what I remember.

[Ed Pettibone]

Aaron Weaver writes in part;

I stepped out during Tony's speech.

The rainbow stole represents that the person wearing it supports the full inclusion of Gay and Lesbian persons as members of the Church. The rainbow stole is symbolic of the hope of gays, lesbians, and their straight-allies to be a church which welcomes and affirms all persons, regardless of sexual orientation.

Ed: A rainbow stole represents what ever the wearer may intend for it to mean although others may interpret it to mean what ever they chose.

When I was in high school, probably before your parents day, wearing yellow on Thursdays was supposed to signify that one was gay. However there was an older tradition at our school that seniors fellows wore yellow cords every day.( Yes that is every day, not just any day) Underclass interlopers risked getting striped to their shorts. BTW, you may want to note that what Tony delivered during the Thursday morning session is listed in the official program as the sermon for that session. Sermon = a religious discourse delivered in public usually by a clergy-person as a part of a worship service. It was a worship service and Tony is an ordained ABC-USA clergyman

And I note you have yet to speak to the fact that Tony wore the stole under his suit coat and it barley peeked out. You can verify that with any of the 5,500 or so people who where there during that time.

Yes you could only barely see teh rainbow scarf but I did notice it and knew what it stood for. It was no doubt deliberate.

Previously I have heard at the Charlotte CBF (and read in one of his books) that Tony believes in full inclusion in the church for Gays/Lesbians but that homosexuality is a sin. His wife however believes homosexuality is not necessarily a sin. At least that is what I remember.

Ed: Keith you and I did not hear Tony in exactly the same way in Charlotte. And you will have to give me chapter and page number to persuade me that you read in one of his book that he believes "in full inclusion in the church for gays and lesbians". He has said that rather than condemn them the church needs to minister to them.

[Stephen Fox]

in many venues here, there is no better response to the WSJ than Pulitzer Marilynne Robinson's magnificent essay The Tyranny of Petty Coercion in her collection The Death of Adam.
EDP: I hope you order a copy this weekend.

[Ed Pettibone]

in many venues here, there is no better response to the WSJ than Pulitzer Marilynne Robinson's magnificent essay The Tyranny of Petty Coercion in her collection The Death of Adam.
EDP: I hope you order a copy this weekend.

Ed: Stephen, who is EDP? I have a son who's initials are DEP, mine ate JEP. I however have no inclination toward reading Ms. Robinson's Death of Adam , I will take your word for it being a very fine book.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

What I find most interesting about Tony Campolo is that often he seems to articulate Peggy's view of homosexuality and her interpretation of the Scripture passages in a manner that is much more convincing than his own argument against "same-sex eroticism."

That is my opinion - an opinion that I've long held before Letters was published. I listened to two different presentations on homosexuality a few years back where he opened up for her with his speech and would lob Peggy softballs and she'd proceed to hit a homerun. Read Letters to a Young Evangelical. Tony almost always gives Peggy the last word and her arguments are quite punchy!

I think its pretty clear that Campolo supports the inclusion of gays and lesbians into the church. On P. 158 of Letters, he states that he stands steadfastly with his gay and lesbian friends as they struggle for equality and justice.

Here's a quote:

"Altought I maintain a conservative interpretation of Scripture when dealing with this issue, I differ from many Evangelicals in believing that people do not choose to be gay and that changes in sexual orientation are unlikely.

As I previously stated, Tony is against "same-sex eroticism." He calls on gays and lesbians to live a life of celibacy. He recognizes that we don't all share the same sexual orientation. Tony also recognizes that one should not try to change their orientation. So, how is Tony against the inclusion of gays and lesbians in the church? He clearly states that homosexuality is not an issue that churches should divide over. I just personally think his celibacy argument isn't practical.

Tony is against gay marriage. However, he believes that the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. So do I. That's page 169.

"I propose that the government should get out of the marrying business completely. Instead, the state should legally recognize and grant the same legal benefits to both heterosexual and homosexual unions. But the state should not call these unions "marriages" because, I believe, marriage is religiously ordained and belongs solely in the hands of religious institutions."

Tony also supports the rights of homosexuals to adopt children.
Tony fights homophobic policies (Don't Ask Don't Tell) (p172)

In his conclusion, Tony writes:

"Wherever you come out on the controversies that surround homosexuality and gay marriage, I urge you to work for justice for gay and lesbian people. There is no question taht the Bible has a whole lot to say about justice for the oppressed."

[KeithE]

Yes you could only barely see the rainbow scarf but I did notice it and knew what it stood for. It was no doubt deliberate.

Previously I have heard at the Charlotte CBF (and read in one of his books) that Tony believes in full inclusion in the church for Gays/Lesbians but that homosexuality is a sin. His wife however believes homosexuality is not necessarily a sin. At least that is what I remember.

Ed: Keith you and I did not hear Tony in exactly the same way in Charlotte. And you will have to give me chapter and page number to persuade me that you read in one of his book that he believes "in full inclusion in the church for gays and lesbians". He has said that rather than condemn them the church needs to minister to them.

Ed,

In addition to Big Daddy quotes, the following quotes in Speaking My Mind by Tony Campolo are offerred. Chapter 5 page 55 it says:

My wife Peggy believes that the church should legitimize gay marriages because she thinks that lifelong commitment by people who love each other enhance their humanity. I hold to a more conservative view, believing that same-gender eroticism cannot be reconciled with Scripture.

His wife has a more liberal view, which is one point I was making.

Page 56:

I call upon the church to stop making same-gender eroticism into some kind of supersin that somehow warants parents throwing away their chidren or barring people from the church. I plead with the church to join in efforts to grant full civil rights to gay men and lesbians.

Also, throughout the chapter he emphasizes ministering to the GLB crowd in the church just like anyone else with sin in their lives - I'd call that full inclusion (the other point I was making).

His wearing the stole was no doubt in solidarity with Gay/Lesbian rights within the assembled Baptists. Sorry if that bursts your bubble about Tony. But I didn't see any position on GLB ordination. I'll check some other books (Letters, Hot Potatoes) tomorrow.