Adrian's David Rogers on Baptist Covenant

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Adrian's David Rogers on Baptist Covenant

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Feb 06, 2008 6:56 pm

Bdid has done us all a service and started an interesting conversation in crossblogging reactions to NBC.
In the blog below there is an interesting conversation going from this Memphis Declaration signer, Adrian Roger's son. I hope Ryan Hale, another MemDec signer will join this conversation and hoping BDid will Bring Ben Cole here.
Adrian is looking for more ecumenicity within his own world, even going so far recently on his LoveEachStone blog to embrace the Third Congress of the Lausanne Movement, one which Francis Schaeffer rejected on the basis of inerrancy and Billy Graham embraced.
As I have mentioned before, Charles MArsh found this breach between Graham and Schaeffer quite significant; and here in our time may translate into a significant divide between David Rogers and Mohler; as the divide has already taken shape with the Memphis Declaration.
We need Ben Cole's help here.
It may be Rogers will eventually be open to some overtures, but who is to say.
Let us hope they will read deeply in Mark Noll and Marsh, and I guess we will have to let the Spirit lead from there.
I hope this convesation if it gains traction at all, will pick up where Bruce Prescott left off with Ben Cole on his recent Podcast.

http://fromthehillsandhollers.blogspot. ... gwash.html

David Rogers said...
Tim, Tim & David,

You all seem to be missing what I am saying here. I expressed my own reservations about the NBC a long time ago on my own blog here. I am not defending the NBC or Jimmy Carter, et al. Far from it.

But I am saying we should be more known for what we are for than what we are against. The NBC purports to be a celebration of Baptist unity. I happen to believe that true Biblical Christian unity, based on the essentials of the Gospel (not heresy) is a better cause.

What I am asking is, if we are against the NBC, what positive alternatives do we suggest as a means to honor Jesus' desires and obey His commands concerning unity?

January 31, 2008 6:10 PM

David Rogers said...
David,

Thanks for your answer to my question.

I don't think we are that far apart on these issues. However, there is a question of emphasis that I think, to a large degree, many in Southern Baptist life (and in some other groups as well) have neglected or minimized.

The teaching of the NT on the unity of the Body of Christ is, at least as I understand it, quite clear, and quite forceful. And yet, in certain circles, it seems it is rarely ever mentioned in sermons, or blogposts, or conversations, while all the reasons we need to separate from others (many legitimate) are incessantly railed upon.

You say: "we CAN join together with churches of other denominations to pray for our nation. we CAN join together to do benevolent ministries. we CAN join together to fight social maladies that try to invade our town." Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but it comes across as if you are saying it is something permitted if we should feel so inclined, nothing more.

I am not saying we should compromise our own convictions, settling on a least common denominator approach in our evangelistic and church planting efforts. We must teach the Bible as we understand it. But in those areas that don't require us to compromise our convictions, I think we need to, just as God commands us by way of the Apostle Paul, "make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit" (Eph. 4:3). Notice he doesn't say: "give a half-hearted effort." He says: "make every effort." And it is not a suggestion, or an option. It is a command.

That is why, whenever we feel the need to point out the problems with misguided efforts toward false unity, we need, at the same time, to do our best to give at least and equally forceful positive message for true, biblical unity.

Sfox> In this latter comment, I think David is getting to a place his father refused to get to in the takeover of the SBC.
So in the spirit of Jesus and David Gushee, let's hope this conversation goes somewhere.
Last edited by Stephen Fox on Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rogers and Gushee? Room here for Reconciliation??

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Feb 06, 2008 7:18 pm

And if by chance David Rogers does engage the discussion Here, I would hope he and all others will take a close look at what David Gushee sees emanating from the NBC in these thoughts of Feb 5

http://www.abpnews.com/3016.article

http://www.abpnews.com/2985.article

What in these two articles could David Rogers find fault with, see as heresy.

Ryan Hale has pilgrimmed through the Memphis Declaration to more openness to the likes of us here. Ben Cole's pilgrimage hints in the direction of Gushee as well.
In his truest heart, what fault can Rogers find with Gushee; what part of Gushee's appraisal of the Covenant if any is there cause for concern for Adrian Rogers' Son?
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Adding CB Scott to this inflation

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Feb 08, 2008 5:35 pm

John Killian's friend, CB Scott has some interesting nuances on Ben Cole in his blog

http://cbscottreport.blogspot.com/2008/ ... stion.html

See the thirty comments he has provoked.

Says he has read Mark Noll; I am proud of him and once you are at his site you will see his kind words for Samford President Westmoreland in regard the recent Huckabee event at Samford.

Samford should host Randall Balmer this fall with Charles Marsh to talk about it all; Bring Richard Land there.

Here is a good link for some perspective on the Covenant CB Scott apparently missed; great context that should help Westmoreland; rather vice versa CB Scott understand Westmoreland's heart on the Covenant better.
Who knows I may learn a thing or two as I am daily.

Check on my blog.
Hoping Ryan Hale can take it up from there and maybe engage Ginny Brant in this discussion; and from there McForrest Soaries, Charles Marsh, Stephen Black and Melissa Rogers.

In Christ's name making the path for Obama's presidency :lol:

Sfox

Context invoking Balmer:

http://religiondispatches.org/Gui/Conte ... e=BL&Id=47
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Re: Adrian's David Rogers on Baptist Covenant

Postby Ed Pettibone » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:15 pm

Ed: Where did Prescott get his so called Backstory about how the NBC celebration came about. I heard it differntly.
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Ask

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Feb 08, 2008 6:27 pm

Prescott, or take it up at his blog with a comment there.

I think he makes good use of his Balmer quote.

Let's give this conflation a little room to breathe; great opportunity here with this thread to bring the world of Adrian Rogers to that of Ben Cole and Big Daddy and David Gushee.
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CB Scott takes issue

Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:25 am

I really thought I had some decent high ground exploring Ben Cole, David Rogers, inerrancy and the Lausanne Covenant at my blog, but it seems to have struck a nerve with CB Scott.
Don't know if any of you want to "go there" as it were, but thought I'd least let you know the exchange was out there at my blog googled asfoxseesit.

Sfox
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My latest exchange with David Rogers

Postby Stephen Fox » Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:40 pm

From the comment line at his blog:

David Rogers said...
Stephen Fox,

I have previously posted my opinions related to the NBC here.

I have not read Marsh on Schaeffer, Graham and Lausanne. Perhaps I will eventually get around to it, but for the time being, I've got a lot of other things to occupy my time.

Also, I don't mean to "dis" you, but, honestly, I probably won't get involved in the discussion at baptistlife.com. It just doesn't seem to me to be a profitable use of my time and efforts right now.

From what I can pick up, you would love for me to come out publicly distancing myself from my father's views on inerrancy. I can assure you I am not anywhere close to doing that.

I do think the Lausanne Movement represents something important that all of us, as members of the Body of Christ, should be concerned about, working together to see the Great Commission fulfilled.

I will need to "do my homework" a bit more, before coming out with any pronouncement regarding the wording of the Lausanne Covenant on inerrancy. I do agree it is an important concern. There does indeed seem to be a legitimate tension between being faithful to the Lord's desire for unity among his children, and being faithful to the total truthfulness and authority of his Word. I want to do my best to be as faithful as I can to both.

February 15, 2008 1:52 PM


Anonymous said...
David:
Sfox here
Thanks for you gracious reply to my several comments here.
I do hope you can find a way as soon as you can make time to at least go to the index of Marsh's book and read his ten or so pages on Schaeffer and the Lausanne Movement and Inerrancy.
Later as you have time, I think you will like what he has to say about Bonhoeffer.
I am trying to make some sense of several things at my blog, anchoring an essay of Marilynne Robinson to Bill Hull's latest pamphlet.
I'm sure you remember Hull as a Provost at Southern Seminary in the early 70's.
Hull has written a remarkable pamphlet that was given to every attendee of the Baptist Covenant in Atlanta. I have been reading it the last several days and it is strong, without rancor about the last 30 years in SB life.
I do think you have some room in your convictions for common ground with DAvid Gushee.
While I can be given to polemics at time, I guess I will have to trust the Holy Spirit to work through Gushee and some others of his caliber to challenge you in good time.
On a good note, while my way is a little different, I can find no fault in your affection for the Lausanne Movement as I understand it; and I wish you good speed in that community and path.

Sfox

February 17, 2008 5:38 PM
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Re: My latest exchange with David Rogers

Postby Mark » Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:16 pm

Fox, you can surely appreciate, as I do, David Rogers wanting to remain loyal to his Baptist preacher Dad. That's totally understandable. I'm just glad you've been engaging him in conversation. David seems to be a solid guy overall. Hopefully he, and all of us, will continue striving to land on higher ground most of the time.
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Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:04 pm

You in particular will find this recent travel by David Rogers interesting.
Would be interesting to have Jay Wolfe on panel to discuss Wills The Rove Era with Stephen Black and Richard Land, maybe sometime this fall at Samford.
Have them sign a pledge to read Marilynne Robinson and Bill Hull before they panel

http://www.sbcimpact.net/2008/02/11/mis ... n-the-sbc/

And you will find David's most recent blogs interesting as they testify to his recent experience in Montgomery at Loveeachstone.

And add this Gushee oped that was also published in the Jan Baps Today to the mix

http://www.abpnews.com/2882.article
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And Maybe Rogers Heart

Postby Stephen Fox » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:10 pm

is with the New Baptist Covenant and he just can't admit it yet.
His recent trip to Bham seems to have convicted him in ways his Dad's parishioner Ed McAteer could never have dreamed.

http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2008/ ... thern.html

Link is his latest blog and here is my comment there.


February 17, 2008 2:48 PM
foxofbama said...
David:
I commend you for taking a look at these matters, but I feel the Vandy proff at the end of the Wpost article raises some real issues.
To get to where you seem to want to be going, I think you and Jay Wolfe and the likes are gonna have to come to some conversation with UVA Charles Marsh and the like.
Bring Hugo Black of Alabama, his Grandson Stephen to the conversation as well.
With your heart toward the Lausanne Movement convention in South Africa, I would hope you will find a way to explore the substance of this article on Barack Obama as it ends with a meditation on Nelson Mandela.
And sincerely, any true reconciliation between the current SBC and Black America seems to me would have to have some honest discussion about WA Criswell and the 100 odd pages about him in Rice U proff Chandler Davidson's Race and Class in Texas Politics.
Sfox

February 19, 2008 2:06 PM
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David Rogers on Baptist Covenant & Lausanne Movement

Postby Prentice Fox » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:27 pm

I can only imagine that David Rogers, with the evangelistic zeal of his father Adrian, has been challenged by the words of Dr. Judy Mbugua, the Chair of African Christian Women. http://www.lausanne.org Dr. Mbugua states, "Cape Town 2010 will rally the Global Church to advance the Great Commission." It is much bigger than Carter's Dream of NBC. The Lausanne Movement is for all mankind. I only hope that Dr. Ravi Zecharias will be in Cape Town to give it a big boost. I wonder if Campolo will be on the program with his Rainbow Stole??
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Re: Adrian's David Rogers on Baptist Covenant

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:51 pm

When you tell the people in your area who were blessed by the New Baptist Covenant; when you tell them about Campolo's stole and how Carter's vision is lesser than Adrian Rogers, how do they respond?
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Re: Adrian's David Rogers on Baptist Covenant

Postby Prentice Fox » Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:03 pm

I believe I said that the Lausanne Movement was bigger than Carter's dream on the NBC; not that Adrian Rogers was bigger. You have created a false illusion here. The NBC was a good thing. Now, let us move on to a great thing; The Lausanne Movement. You will find the Link above in my last post.
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Re: Adrian's David Rogers on Baptist Covenant

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:13 pm

Prentice:
Do you see the Lausanne Movement excluding the Baptist World Alliance?
And if not, then doesn't that present a challenge to Mohler and Patterson and Land's SBC who protect the Inerrancy of Scripture at all costs?
Marsh is clear about Inerrancy being dismissed in the origins of the Lausanne Covenant.
In your own narrow definitions it would seem you would want to call the SBC to task on the Lausanne Covenant and Inerrancy; or else be pushing for them to rejoin the BWA.
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Re: Adrian's David Rogers on Baptist Covenant

Postby Prentice Fox » Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:26 pm

I do not see the Lausane Movement and BWA as mutually exclusive of each other at all. They are not competing. They, instead, are complementing each other's work in carrying out The Great Commission. President Bush has been in Rhwanda this week; and has seen the forgiveness of Christian Love exemplified in the citizens there whose loved ones were massacred in the earlier genocide of that country. It is a time for Unity in the Essentials, and Tolerance in the Non-essential things. There is a great diversity in the Christian Faith, and this will be manifested in Capetown 2010. It will be something about like what Carlyle Marney experienced in Upsala Sweden when he attended the World Council of Churches, along with his friend O.J. Sherrill, head of North Carolina Negro Baptists. Marney said, "It felt like Nicea. I was in the territory of Eusebius in the fourth century as he described the one-armed, mained and blinded bishops, some of them who had traveled 18 months to get to the counci lof little Nicea....There are many of us who long after the unity inherent in the faith and knowledge of our Lord." YES, Marney would be in Lausanne Movement AND THE BWA had not God called him home to the Father's House.
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Re: Adrian's David Rogers on Baptist Covenant

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Feb 20, 2008 4:11 pm

Here is a place where I think the Baptist Covenant and David Rogers would find common ground.
It is the crux of my original invitation to David Rogers to dialogue

It should be noted that Gushee's article here today was spotlighted at http://www.faithinpubliclife.org

http://www.abpnews.com/3037.article
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Re: Adrian's David Rogers on Baptist Covenant

Postby Prentice Fox » Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:52 pm

Certainly, it is quite presumptious of Stephen to attempt to speak for David Rogers as to Rogers having common ground with the NBC. Rogers, the son of Adrian, (Just as David was the son of Jesse) has the eloquent ability to speak for himself; and he had done exacty that on his own blog. He has disavowed any interest to posting here on BL.com; and I don't believe, for one minute, that he will succomb to Stephen's baiting him here. David has expressed great interest and hope for some powerful results to come about from the Lausanne movement; and there are many committed Christians throughout Africa who will respond to the challenges of the LM. My daughter-in-law taught a group of national Kenyan pastors for Wayland University last year; and she was very impressed with the dedication and sacrifices than Kenyan Christians are making.
Prentice Fox
 

Rogers Heart

Postby Stephen Fox » Wed Feb 20, 2008 10:15 pm

I don't see how any fair minded person could read my comment to David on his blog and copied here above; how any fair minded person could call that "baiting."
Thornton had a good word for you on the Land and Parham thing in the SBC thread.

I am hoping folks will now focus on the Gushee link as I am convinced there is a lot of missionary work Gushee can do with DAvid Rogers for the Baptist Covenant work and the Kingdom as well.
But to understood that, you would have to know a little about Gushee's pilgrimage and witness and some seem to be blind to that greater point.
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D. Roger's mind and Common Ground

Postby Prentice Fox » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:02 pm

No Fair-mind question here at all, Stephen. My comment above obviously was to your last post in this thread where you think that David Roger would find common ground with NBC. My comment was not in any way related to a much earlier post that you made on his blog. Again you err in your reference to my post. Read it again, and I believe you will understand it better. It is really not a question of fair-mindedness, but is rather a question of your ability to read and understand. Your thoughts are not David Rogers' thoughts. All fair minded readers will readily agree with that concept. You baited David Rogers just as you baited me with your infamous thread, "Is this Fair to Robert Parham?" I still maintain that you do not have the mind of David Rogers, son of Adrian. Now, with "Bated Breath," Let us Move On to the Lausanne Movement with the hope that Ravi Zecharias will soon be there.
Last edited by Prentice Fox on Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Adrian's David Rogers on Baptist Covenant

Postby Stephen Fox » Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:08 pm

No, Prentice, fair minded and literate readers will conclude you are the Master at baiting; and your allegation that I baited David Rogers was false.
You move on to wherever you want to.
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David Rogers was not Baited

Postby Prentice Fox » Fri Feb 22, 2008 4:25 pm

by Stephen. Because David, like his illustrious Dad Adrian, is Unbaitable. My apologies, Stephen. And the best to David back home there in Alcala de Henares, where the legendary Don Quixote was born in the unforgettable novel with all of its symbolisms of Windmills. David, "Salud, Pesetas Y Amour."
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Cervantes and David Rogers

Postby Prentice Fox » Mon Mar 03, 2008 3:30 pm

I can't help but believe that the great Castilean Author, Cervantes, would be very proud to have David Rogers living there in his hometown of Alcala de Henares. The author would most likely offer David a glass of Sangria, and David would take it. Non-alchoholic type Sangria of course, like the German Gluwein. They would have great fellowship discussing the Windmills, and Wind Power and Solar Energy and Global Warming and BFM 2000!!
Prentice Fox
 

BDid

Postby Stephen Fox » Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:06 pm

Weaver has a series of blogs on DAvid Gushee and his take on the evangelical Left and Right. Weaver makes references to the differences between Gushee and Balmer.
It is this kind of conversation, the one BDid is exploring, I hope the likes of Ginny Brant and David Rogers will engage.
BDid's blogs of march 12 and 14 are the ones in question.

sfox
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