BaptistLife.Com Forums.

I suggest and will say more later the following be considered.

Randall Balmer with his recent piece on race and the evolution in GOP that gave us Trump

Harvard's Tomiko Brown Nagin, Furman grad, native of Greenwood SC whose dissertation was on the moderate progressive Black community of Atlanta in 50s and 60s.

Low State Alabama's David Potts, president of Judson College 20 miles east of Selma and the frustration he has had over the years with a black political network that seems to be only interested in their personal aggrandizement. Have Congresswoman Terri Sewell on panel with Potts and Auburn Democracy Project Mark Wilson a student of Wayne Flynt whose non profit has had a presence in Selma the last four years.

Jakari Sellers, son of Cleveland Sellers, an up and coming force in South Carolina.

Molly Worthen, Judge crater...Jimmy Hoffa would give some traction...Amelia Earhart would bring down the house...

William Thornton wrote:Molly Worthen, Judge crater...Jimmy Hoffa would give some traction...Amelia Earhart would bring down the house...

Nothing from Wuthnow's Rough Country?

The New Baptist Covenant hasn't had much traction, or participation, since its initial launch, which also fell short of expectations. It will take more than new faces to revive this moribund organization.

Sandy wrote:

William Thornton wrote:Molly Worthen, Judge crater...Jimmy Hoffa would give some traction...Amelia Earhart would bring down the house...

Nothing from Wuthnow's Rough Country?

The New Baptist Covenant hasn't had much traction, or participation, since its initial launch, which also fell short of expectations. It will take more than new faces to revive this moribund organization.

Ed: Sandy, in what way do you claim that the the initial launch fell short of expectations? I will agree that the follow ups have been far less Spectacular.

And Stephen, the the the Initial NBC meeting in Atlanta had a lot of faces that would have been new to most of the participants on these boards.

Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: Sandy, in what way do you claim that the the initial launch fell short of expectations? I will agree that the follow ups have been far less Spectacular.

I don't know, perhaps the press clippings that showed the leaders expecting 25,000, and having about half of that number actually show up, including the one-day drop in African American groups, who boosted the attendance in the early sessions.

Numbers aren't everything, though. It just seems that things have been pretty quiet since 2008 on this particular front, and the energy and effort has just not materialized. Honestly, I think prior to this particular organization, there were plenty of places for Baptists to organize, meet together in a convention hall, attend breakout sessions and dialogue about possibilities. For those who have an interest in the sort of thing the covenant has moved to do, there is already the BWA and its North American branch organization. Most denominational organizations also do plenty of meetings, and organize similar initiatives. It seemed that some of those who commented initially were looking more for a "doing" thing than a gathering, meeting and dialogue thing.

You can have a lot of dialogue about bringing Baptists together and doing something, but if you don't make room for more than half of them who are SBC, Independent, or members of a denomination that isn't in the BWA, it's not going to meet its vision of unity.

Sandy wrote:

Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: Sandy, in what way do you claim that the the initial launch fell short of expectations? I will agree that the follow ups have been far less Spectacular.

Sandy: I don't know, perhaps the press clippings that showed the leaders expecting 25,000, and having about half of that number actually show up, including the one-day drop in African American groups, who boosted the attendance in the early sessions.

Numbers aren't everything, though. It just seems that things have been pretty quiet since 2008 on this particular front, and the energy and effort has just not materialized. Honestly, I think prior to this particular organization, there were plenty of places for Baptists to organize, meet together in a convention hall, attend breakout sessions and dialogue about possibilities. For those who have an interest in the sort of thing the covenant has moved to do, there is already the BWA and its North American branch organization. Most denominational organizations also do plenty of meetings, and organize similar initiatives. It seemed that some of those who commented initially were looking more for a "doing" thing than a gathering, meeting and dialogue thing.

You can have a lot of dialogue about bringing Baptists together and doing something, but if you don't make room for more than half of them who are SBC, Independent, or members of a denomination that isn't in the BWA, it's not going to meet its vision of unity.

Ed: Sandy, I don't know what press clippings you are talking about. (BP)? I didn't read much about the event, I was there. The "one day drop" in African American attendance was due to the fact that first day of the Baptist Covenant meeting over lapped with the combined annual Conventions of three of the largest Black Baptist groups that had already been there several days. I spent most of the first day working as a volunteer in two of the information booths that where set up in the main concourses, with African American counterparts. And the ones who where not staying expressed disappointment, that they could just not afford lodging and meal expenses for longer. Some who did extend their stay, had not planed to do so, yet due to the first day experience, made sacrifices to stay on.

Of course as you say numbers are not every thing. Patterns that have developed over years, decades and centuries of "Baptist Life" are not going to change quickly. I know of no one who has suggested that to "meet together in a convention hall, attend breakout sessions and dialogue about possibilities" is all that is needed. When you say "For those who have an interest in the sort of thing the covenant has moved to do, there is already the BWA and its North American branch organization ". But Sandy, have you forgotten the SBC Left the BWA, Independents have never been there? And BTW the latter two groups where not formally excluded from the NBC. It is true that their leadership where not invited to participate due to their track record of excluding some of the organizers. The fact is there where some SBC folk in attendance, I am not sure about independents. I know about some SBC folk because they came to the information desk and asked if they where "Allowed" our answer was YES, welcome.

I am curious as to what you mean by " It seemed that some of those who commented initially were looking more for a "doing" thing than a gathering, meeting and dialogue thing." A high-lite was the preaching series where one after another, preachers from the various baptist groups delivered sermons. For many attendees it was the first time they had ever heard a woman or some one of a race other than their own preach.

In the second round I attended the regional meeting at Shiloh Baptist Church in Philadelphia. Unfortunately I was only 1 of 2 whites in the assembly which was made up primarily of Pastors attending their Associations meeting which ran concurrently. A large part of that program was a video feed from a NBC regional meeting in Atlanta which failed to hold the attention of those in our meeting well. The local association was the focus of the live presentations. The 2nd day schedule was to be more of the same and I did not stay. I heard nothing of the third round until one week before it was to happen, and we had something else scheduled.


I still believe in the concept of the New Baptist Covenant but it needs strong, equitable leadership from the component parts.

I think that following the large meetings the plan was to move into developing partnerships among churches who would work together on joint ministries. Here in Macon the two First Baptists, one primarily white and one primarily black, have signed such a covenant, and are developing joint worship and ministry efforts.

It's going to take time for pastors to build relationships that lead to such covenants. Many white and black pastors in the same towns don't know each other at all.

Here in Ga, the state CBF and the New Era Baptist Convention (a black Baptist group based in Ga) held a joint workday in May, to help renovate and restore a camp owned by the New Era Convention to usefulness. Over 200 people were there, and there was a great spirit of teamwork and fellowship. Friendships were made. We worked together, ate together, and worshiped together. More workdays are to be planned. One participant/observer was Hannah McMann, who provides leadership to the New Baptist Covenant project nationally. She lives in DC, I think, but her dad is university minister at Mercer.

Neil Heath wrote:I think that following the large meetings the plan was to move into developing partnerships among churches who would work together on joint ministries. Here in Macon the two First Baptists, one primarily white and one primarily black, have signed such a covenant, and are developing joint worship and ministry efforts.

It's going to take time for pastors to build relationships that lead to such covenants. Many white and black pastors in the same towns don't know each other at all.

Here in Ga, the state CBF and the New Era Baptist Convention (a black Baptist group based in Ga) held a joint workday in May, to help renovate and restore a camp owned by the New Era Convention to usefulness. Over 200 people were there, and there was a great spirit of teamwork and fellowship. Friendships were made. We worked together, ate together, and worshiped together. More workdays are to be planned. One participant/observer was Hannah McMann, who provides leadership to the New Baptist Covenant project nationally. She lives in DC, I think, but her dad is university minister at Mercer.

Ed: Neal would it be possible for you to invite Hannah to come on BL.com to provide us with a more complete overview of the work she is doing as a NBC leader.. I see bits and pieces but am not real sure how to find more information. Trudy and I met Hannah when we worked the NBC booth in the ABC-USA resource center at the famous 2007 Joint Meeting in DC. She seemed to be a sharp young lady.

Neil Heath wrote:Here in Ga, the state CBF and the New Era Baptist Convention (a black Baptist group based in Ga) held a joint workday in May, to help renovate and restore a camp owned by the New Era Convention to usefulness. Over 200 people were there, and there was a great spirit of teamwork and fellowship. Friendships were made. We worked together, ate together, and worshiped together. More workdays are to be planned. One participant/observer was Hannah McMann, who provides leadership to the New Baptist Covenant project nationally. She lives in DC, I think, but her dad is university minister at Mercer.

Seems to me that's the kind of thing that was talked about when the New Baptist Covenant was started. But it also seems like it focuses on the gatherings and meetings and who's going to be prominent enough to get the pulpit time. There's plenty of opportunity for that everywhere in Baptist life.

Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: Neal would it be possible for you to invite Hannah to come on BL.com to provide us with a more complete overview of the work she is doing as a NBC leader.. I see bits and pieces but am not real sure how to find more information. Trudy and I met Hannah when we worked the NBC booth in the ABC-USA resource center at the famous 2007 Joint Meeting in DC. She seemed to be a sharp young lady.

I have not met Hannah so she doesn't know me at all. Perhaps you could invite her and see if she's interested in our little band.

Neil Heath wrote:

Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: Neal would it be possible for you to invite Hannah to come on BL.com to provide us with a more complete overview of the work she is doing as a NBC leader.. I see bits and pieces but am not real sure how to find more information. Trudy and I met Hannah when we worked the NBC booth in the ABC-USA resource center at the famous 2007 Joint Meeting in DC. She seemed to be a sharp young lady.

I have not met Hannah so she doesn't know me at all. Perhaps you could invite her and see if she's interested in our little band.

I have met Hannah McMahan as well, first at a Alabama CBF meeting in Birmingham where she was promoting NBC “Covenants of Action” (COAs). Read about them here. I attempted to get a COA going here in Huntsville but it died when we could not get attendants from the 5 churches that showed initial interest to a meeting in Atlanta I believe it was in Feb 2015. I had many emails/phone calls from her in that aborted attempt.

She grew up partially in Huntsville. Her dad Craig McMahan was a Baptist pastor at Hillsborough BC which was a conservative church in a run- down area near the Redstone Arsenal entrance. He and his wife used to sneak over to services at our church occasionally on Sunday night because they were in need of “moderate" fellowship. My impression is that he struggled in that church and was run off eventually. Perhaps that is why Hannah chose to work for the NBC.

She is young (maybe 35-40), tall, slender, attractive, red headed, well spoken. She lives in Wash DC and still single I believe.

I could email her (still get her announcements) and say there is some interest that she tell us more about the NBC suggesting she do so in the NBC Forum. But I’ll only do so if enough of you (say 5) show interest. Not exactly sure of her position in the NBC but my impression is that she is in leadership.

Heck, go ahead and invite her.

Haruo wrote:Heck, go ahead and invite her.

Ed; I second Haruro's approval. we haven't had any recent contact.

Not sure when I'll get my email back again. Maybe tomorrow. We are moving houses and my internet connection and thus my email records are not available. Nor do I have much time (even to answer ET's recent posts). But I'll email Hannah soon.

Sandy wrote:

Neil Heath wrote:Here in Ga, the state CBF and the New Era Baptist Convention (a black Baptist group based in Ga) held a joint workday in May, to help renovate and restore a camp owned by the New Era Convention to usefulness. Over 200 people were there, and there was a great spirit of teamwork and fellowship. Friendships were made. We worked together, ate together, and worshiped together. More workdays are to be planned. One participant/observer was Hannah McMann, who provides leadership to the New Baptist Covenant project nationally. She lives in DC, I think, but her dad is university minister at Mercer.

Seems to me that's the kind of thing that was talked about when the New Baptist Covenant was started. But it also seems like it focuses on the gatherings and meetings and who's going to be prominent enough to get the pulpit time. There's plenty of opportunity for that everywhere in Baptist life.

Ed: Sandy, where are you getting your perception of New Baptist Covenant activity? While I have not had the sort of hands on activity reported by Neil, I have heard and have seen pictures of several such activities that are or have done some real ministry in several places, from both CBF and ABC leaders at some of those meetings that "are mostly talk". Baptists Today (now Nurturing Faith), The Fellowship Magazine, and other periodicals have had coverage of several such experiences. How ever oral presentations are one way to make people aware of what is happening and encourage them to participate in the boots on the ground sort of things. BTW, I think the comment above that "But it also seems like it focuses on the gatherings and meetings and who's going to be prominent enough to get the pulpit time", is simply another your cheep shots at Baptists who are involved in non-traditional ministries outside the walls of a church building. To me that does seem strange coming from a long time Baptist who is now headmaster of a "Christian School" owned by another denomination.

I do hope Miss McMahan Accepts Keith's invitation to update all of us to the current status of the New Baptist Covenant movement.

Have to get to bed as I have a trip to Syracuse for a Regional ABC/NYS Board of Missions, meeting, in the morning.

Ed Pettibone wrote: BTW, I think the comment above that "But it also seems like it focuses on the gatherings and meetings and who's going to be prominent enough to get the pulpit time", is simply another your cheep shots at Baptists who are involved in non-traditional ministries outside the walls of a church building.

I read Baptists Today (now Nurturing Faith), and that's where the impression is left that there's a lot of talk, but not a lot of "non-traditional ministry outside the walls of a church building" going on. There's a pattern here that keeps getting repeated. Lots of fanfare, a gathering, so-and-so is going to give us "a new way to be Baptist," or "a new Baptist covenant," and an outline is provided for how this new thing is going to meet a need in Baptist denominational life that nothing else has yet been able to do. Then interest wanes, a few people get involved, a few cheerleaders put the happy spin on the little that is happening, and most people go back to their church and denomination. I don't think that Baptists, nor very many other Christians for that matter, need or want another meeting to attend.

You're certainly welcome to criticize and belittle the fact that I happen to work for another denomination, if you think that will help you make your point, though I tend to think that the years I invested in ministry in Baptist life, including the time I spent in CBF, provides me with ample qualification and latitude to speak to these issues.

Miss Macmahan is front and center, a key force with New Baptist Covenant, prominent on their facebook promos.

Sandy wrote:

Ed Pettibone wrote: BTW, I think the comment above that "But it also seems like it focuses on the gatherings and meetings and who's going to be prominent enough to get the pulpit time", is simply another your cheep shots at Baptists who are involved in non-traditional ministries outside the walls of a church building.

I read Baptists Today (now Nurturing Faith), and that's where the impression is left that there's a lot of talk, but not a lot of "non-traditional ministry outside the walls of a church building" going on. There's a pattern here that keeps getting repeated. Lots of fanfare, a gathering, so-and-so is going to give us "a new way to be Baptist," or "a new Baptist covenant," and an outline is provided for how this new thing is going to meet a need in Baptist denominational life that nothing else has yet been able to do. Then interest wanes, a few people get involved, a few cheerleaders put the happy spin on the little that is happening, and most people go back to their church and denomination. I don't think that Baptists, nor very many other Christians for that matter, need or want another meeting to attend.

You're certainly welcome to criticize and belittle the fact that I happen to work for another denomination, if you think that will help you make your point, though I tend to think that the years I invested in ministry in Baptist life, including the time I spent in CBF, provides me with ample qualification and latitude to speak to these issues.

Ed: I confess that I did not/ do not read Baptist Today or Nuturing faith cover to cove each month. largley because the most of stories a geographically remote from me. But Even the I do find reports of interesting happenings. So Sandy, would you give us a couple specific examples from Baptists Today and/or Nurturing faith where you find the impression " There's a pattern here that keeps getting repeated. Lots of fanfare, a gathering, so-and-so is going to give us "a new way to be Baptist," or "a new Baptist covenant," and an outline is provided for how this new thing is going to meet a need in Baptist denominational life that nothing else has yet been able to do. Then interest wanes, a few people get involved, a few cheerleaders put the happy spin on the little that is happening, and most people go back to their church and denomination. " When you say that I criticize and belittle the fact that you happen to work for another denomination, please point me where I criticized or belittled you for that. Here is something of a rewrite (It seems strange to me that someone out side of Baptist life who works outside of the walls of a church seem to ignore the many valued ministries done in several places, albeit most are in the south, but are reported in the referenced news Journals and are done by CBF and Baptist Covenant folk.) Perhaps my impression was that your school is out side the walls of a church was in error, if not I apologize.

You may not enjoy meetings that largely consist of accounts of what others are doing to promote the Kingdom and to reach the unchurched, but many of us fill some decent sized auditoriums 3 or 4 times a year to participate in such, and it is always enjoyable for my wife and I to see and talk with old friends often this includes pastors and teachers who have impacted our Christian walk. Some times day to day we can feel rather isolated. To day I drove 268 mile round trip and sat almost 6 hours in a regional Board meeting next Tuesday we will be in an Associational Pastors meeting for about 3 hours including lunch. That one is only something like 17 miles away.