GBC and churches w/female pastors, part two

[William Thornton]

Back in November, as the article above recounts, the Georgia Baptist Convention expressed their views on what to do with churches that might call female pastors (tell them to keep their stinkin' money and not send it to the GBC). The convention action was squarely aimed at a single church FBC Decatur who, in a rather high profile manner, called such a pastor. At the time FBC Decatur's new pastor, Julie Pennington Russell, handled the attention and displeasure with some grace and aplomb, noting dryly that the church has had a 146 year relationship with the GBC and that "“I kept waiting for someone from the Georgia Baptist Convention to call us or come visit with me and other leaders of our church to inform us that these matters were being discussed..”. No one came, called or emailed, such is the primitive state of communications technology here in GA, I suppose.

Well, two months later, I am happy to report that the long wait is over. Three GBC reps finally decided that the arduous 20 mile trip from GBC HQ to Decatur was doable and went for a chat with the female pastor. Baptists Today editor John Pierce writes about it:



So the guys go down to Decatur to personally convey the 'news' that the GBC will probably kick the church out this fall and that if the church needs any assistance from the GBC they will not be able to get it.

Most GBCers are probably like me, believing that a pastor should be a man, but I wouldn't vote to kick the church out for having a female pastor. It's their decision to call whom they will. I'm not sure what the profit to the GBC would be to take such action. So far, the convention looks a little silly through it all and John Pierce easily skewers the GBC for it. Pierce ought to send the GBC a check for making his blog so easy to write.

[Mark]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Does any one have a figure on how much FBC Decatur contributed to the financial coffers of the GBC over the last fifty years?

[Dave Roberts]

It seems to me the GBC is losing a lot more than is First Decatur, IMHO. Credibility in a lost world is a hard commodity to find. This will not help.

[David Flick]

[Shortandy]

[Shortandy]

I have to agree with William. I am not in favor of women pastors but for the GBC to "flex its muscle" in this fashion is crazy. I can't find one chapter and verse that evev comes close to this action that has been taken. As a matter of fact the GBC went completly backwards to the biblical model set for us in Matthew 18. If a brother or sister has offend you then you are to go to them first. IF they will not listen you take someone along with you. If that doesn't work you then make the matter public. Again my own convention when backwards. They went public then finally went to the church.

The whole thing just makes me sick to be honest.

[Mark]

[William Thornton]

I've said before that I agree with Wade Burleson at least part of the time. His blog from yesterday on the GBC/FBC Decatur matter (in which I - "one conservative pastor" - am quoted from this topic but the quote is misattributed):



Burleson gets in some heavy slaps at his old IMB nemesis, the former chairman, for problems in his church, something I would ordinarily dismiss as vengeful meanness - one pastor with a big megaphone shouting to all about another pastor's church problems to make a point. I'm not sure how I feel about this.

No one can not notice some things about this business of dismissing churches (variously exhibited by refusing their money, refusing to seat their messengers, withdrawing fellowship): (1) It is highly selective, (2) It is almost always handled poorly, (3) the SBC at several levels looks stupid because of it, (4) It is difficult or impossible to justify on the basis of consistency, and (5) the value of such actions in advancing the kingdom of God is often absent.

[Wade Burleson]

William,

Thanks for pointing out the faulty link. Attribution for your quote about Julie Pennington-Russell has been corrected. I realize that you are not sure how you feel about airing the problems at Tom Hatley's church, but since the Georgia Baptist Convention has very little problem airing their "displeasure" at FBC Decatur, and since the Convention is now making a "disfellowship" move toward FBC, Decatur I am putting the Convention leadership on notice that this action will not be done without other Southern Baptists being direct, and at times sharp, in our questioning of their intended course. However, If I were reading my post impartially, I would come away believing my words to be much more critical towards Dr. White, the Executive Director of the Georgia Baptist Convention. His integrity is at stake. I use the situation at IBC and pastor Tom Hatley as illustrative of what you call: (1) the highly selective practice of disfellowshipping, (2) the poor handling of disfellowshipping a church, (3) the shadow of stupidity cast on all the SBC because of GBC, (4) the difficulty or impossibility to justify the action on the basis of consistency, and (5) the lack of kingdom value in such an action. Those pushing to disfellowship from FBC Decatur argue they are being "faithful" to the biblical text. I am asking, as loudly as I can, "What about all the other qualities the Bible commands a pastor to possess? Are you going to disfellowship from those churches who call pastors who lack self-control, gentleness, etc . . . or are you simply singling out those churches that call a "female"?" Obviously, I believe that we should leave both churches, IBC, Rogers and FBC, Decatur alone, and let the local church practice their autonomy without interference from outsiders. My post is to point out the inconsistency of the act of disfellowship.

To your point number four, which affirms precisely what I am saying, I would like to add two thoughts:

First, there is a measure of consistency in this new found practice of Convention's or SBC agencies "disfellowshipping," "removing," or "publicly denigrating" those who disagree with various interpretations of the sacred text. Those in power are always the ones who determine what should be believed, and those in power are the ones always removing the dissenters.

Second, until those without the power are unafraid to confront such un-christian, absurd and definitely un-baptistic abuses of power by SBC trustee and denominational leaders, there will never be a stop put to it in the Southern Baptist Convention.

I am doing my part to make it end.

Wade

[Ed Pettibone]

[Stephen Fox]

JPierce has an updated and scathing, provocative blog about GBC and FBC Decatur up today at http://www.bteditor.blogspot.com

Jan 27

[William Thornton]

John Pierce reports in his that "Only about 13 members [of FBC Decatur]— some with relatives serving as Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) missionaries — direct their mission gifts to SBC causes through the church, she said. The church will find a way for them to continue that support if they wish, she added."

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Here's the info that I compiled on First Baptist Decatur from the Georgia Baptist Convention annuals:

Average "Total Tithes and Offerings" (1998-2007) = 2,100,000
Average Membership (1998-2007) = 2,776
Average "CP Giving" (1998-2007) = 9883.03
Average "Total Gifts Thru Executive Committee" (1998-2007) = 31,842

During the period 2003-2007:

Average Total Tithes and Offerings = 1,200,000
Average CP Giving = 3,150.60
Average Total Gifts Thru Executive Committee = 17,575

[Wade Burleson]

Ed Pettibone said, "To me it even seams(sic) that Wade is unscrupulously using the issue between the GBC and FBC Decatur to ferment discord among churches in Arkansas and FBC of Rogers."

?? Ed, I am unsure of what you mean by "(fermenting) discord" among churches in Arkansas. However, don't take the time to explain because you have totally missed the point of my post. I am hopeful that maybe, after re-reading what I have written, you might see it is a defense of church autonomy, and a call for Conventions to be consistent and to leave business matters in autonomous churches alone, including IBC and FBC Decatur, rather than "disfellowshipping" from those churches. More precisely, it is calling out the illogicalness and inconsistency of "disfellowshipping" from one church that (in the Convention's opinion) fails to meet the biblical qualifcations of pastor, but refusing to "disfellowship" from another church that very well might have pastors that fail to meet the biblical qualifications of a pastor in other areas. Why be selective? Either "disfellowship" from a church that calls a pastor that violates any biblical qualifications of a pastor (as you see it), or let autonomous churches go about calling the pastors they believe meet the qualifications. The Georgia Baptist Convention, or any other Baptist Convention, ought not be selective.

[Stephen Fox]

proud to see you and William in this scrum.

Fight the Power!!!!!!!!

[Ed Pettibone]

[Haruo]

Fermenting discord may be more objectionable to those of us who are teetotalin' babtists than to those who, like Wade, can see beyond the issue of wine ... After all, you can make pretty good wine from some pretty sour grapes...

[David Flick]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Wade Burleson]

[Ed Pettibone]

[William Thornton]

Ed, I have allowed your exchange with Haruo, David, and Wade to ferment a bit in my mind and I hope you don't think that I am fomenting discord amongst the brethren with this reply. Google "fermenting discord" and then "fomenting discord" and see what you get. The former is a possible construction, I suppose, but the latter is what you probably should have put. Then again, I have learned over the years that it is risky to plumb the depths of the mind of Ed....

Haruo was quite clever in his handling of your misspelling (or misuse) of the word "fermenting."

[Stephen Fox]

The dissenters at Adrian Rogers Bellevue; one of the dissenting blogs there at Bellevue is actively engaged in the comment line of Wade Burleson's two recent blogs on FBC Decatur.

JPierce at BapsToday has commented on his blog the Feb issue of BT features an interview with Jerry Vines West Rome Baptist Product Susan Shaw; and her book on her Mom's bible Study.
Both Pierce and Shaw are Berry College grads.

[Ed Pettibone]