Whitsitt Diaries and Immersion

[KeithE]

Interesting article is the Dec Baptists Today. It is not available to link w/o subscription yet.

The jest of the article is that newly found diaries from William Whitsitt (3rd president of Southern Baptist Theologocal Seminary - Louisville) says that Baptists did not practice baptism by immersion until about 1641 (Baptist as we know them started about 1609, not withstanding Landmarkism that claim a Trail of Blood back to John the Baptist). Whitsitt discoverd this fact ("proofs that were irrefutable") circa 1880 while doing historical research in England and it is captured in detail in Whitsitt's diaries. Jim Slaton (Pastor Emeritus of River Road BC in Richmond) recently discovered Whitsitt's diaries - 16 volumes held by Whitsitt's granddaughter. When Whitsitt brought said scholarship forward to his Seminary colleagues, he lost his job within 3 years. I trust Slaton will not be hung out to dry.

To me it is utterly incredible that a mode of baptism could cause such division. Isn't the depth of personal faith/love/work/hope/fruits of the Spirit well above the mode of surface symbols such as baptism or any dogmatically held doctrine.

But we still have many in the church today that refuse to deal with the "fruits of scholarship". Truth it seems was secondary to tradition/creeds at the turn of the 20th century as well as it is today in many quarters (witness the inerrancy debate). I contribute it to weak insecure faith.

[Stephen Fox]

I read the article as well.
Very good article and I 2nd what Keith says.
Pierce lurks here. We should all commend him on a very good issue. I think he has raised the bar in the last six months and is consistenly publishing a new, higher plateau.

[Dave Roberts]

[Haruo]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Haruo]

So in 1641-42 did all of our forebears who had been affused as believers have to get dunked too, and if not, then at what point did immersionism pass from being adopted to being required?

[Mark]

It's worth noting that our own Bruce Gourley administers the Whitsitt Society website:
http://www.whitsittbaptist.org

[Dave Roberts]

[Haruo]

Granted, but surely some of those who had been poured over were still alive, even if they hadn't been of age in 1609. I guess what I'm asking is, was 1642 when immersion became the universal Baptist practice, or was it when Baptists ceased to recognize non-immersive "baptisms" as valid baptisms, such that a person who had previously received believer's "baptism" in some other mode, even in a church calling itself Baptist, was no longer regarded as having been baptized unless re-"baptized" by immersion?

Also, was (valid) baptism at that time considered a prerequisite to participation in the Lord's Supper?

[William Thornton]

KeithE and others: how many of your baptist churches accept baptisms (or administer the same) that are not by immersion?

[Neil Heath]

Whitsitt's middle name was Heath? I never knew that. Maybe we're kin! I don't have a problem with the different modes of baptism, so maybe we are.

Neil

[Ed Pettibone]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

We need to remember that the 1609 group led by Helwys were known as the General Baptists (Arminian). It was the Particular Baptists (Calvinists) who first became convinced that baptism should be by immersion in 1640 (Barebone congregation). The First London Confession of Particular Baptists which was adopted in 1644 articulated baptism by immersion. The General Baptists that descended from Helwys were probably practicing immersion by 1650 but their first confession calling for baptism by immersion did not appear until 1660.

Regarding Whitsitt, it's worth noting that some historians claim that Henry M. Dexter preceded Whitsitt in expressing the Puritan-Separatist thesis of Baptist origins in 1881 with the publication of "The True Story of John Smyth."

Ed, are you suggesting that a person is not really not an authentic Baptist unless they receive baptism by immersion? That's my interpretation of your statement that begins "I am very much a traditionalist..If folk want to be something other than Baptist that is their choice."

[Mark]

[Dave Roberts]

[Bruce Gourley]

[Bruce Gourley]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[Big Daddy Weaver]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Dave Roberts]

We have a provision in our church's constitution that will allow a person baptized as a believer by another mode to petition for membership without immersion. It has been there for about 15 to 20 years, and so far only one person has petitioned and was received. A few others who first asked about it later decided on their own to be immersed. I guess one could say that our church is "99 and 44/100ths dipped." Of course, one of my Presbyterian friends kids me that the problem with us Baptists is that "you're all wet."

[William Thornton]

[Stephen Fox]

and kinda with Bill Leonard and his BToday article as well.

Or as Delmar would say: "Im with you fellas."

My experience:
I got baptized at Truett Memorial in Hayesville, his birthplace, so if I ain't baptized then I no for Darned sure Thornton ain't

2) My sister was a member of the congregation whose pastor presided over the ouster of FBC Greenville from the association couple years ago. He was all torn up about it, and is now in South Dakota for other reasons.

3) I have worshipped at FBC Greenville--they do a real good congregational singin before the preachin most times I been there and that is why I like it so--and agree with Bill Leonard that in Baptist polity majority vote trumps almost all doctrine and dissent; least it's been my experience.

4)at Same time I agree--bulletin, two Mormons just walked in the library and took my place--with Thornton, if somebody wants to be a Baptist, well then they should know they were gettin in the water over their head when they walked down the ailse.
At same time, I'm kinda with Karl Childers in Slingblade whose theology if extended to where it seemed to be going in last scene, wouldn't throw nobody out of the local church just cause they weren't in for a dunkin.

And 5) For Historical note; first converted I think my Daddy baptized were the James boys, Freddie and the other one in a creek outside Newport Tenn in 53 in the Parrottsville Community some called Baltimore.
I think Scott Erwin is familiar with the place.

6) One more thing, Gus Niebuhr at Newsweek religion blog differing with Al Mohler just today said making a point and I paraphrase: "Heard about it, Hell, I've seen it."
Niebuhr covered the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC in the 80's and now teaches at Syracuse. One of my college proffs at furman was his SS teacher in Boston.
Niebuhr has a new book out on tolerance, and I've seen it.

[KeithE]

[William Thornton]

I enjoyed the article on Whitsitt. It was interesting to read John Pierce's recounting of the people and events in his life: fought with Nathan Bedford Forrest, Battle of Chickamauga, yankee prison camps, part of the troops escorting Jeffferson Davis, Mary Todd Lincoln's sister, kin to wife of president James K. Polk, Spurgeon, Richard Wagner, Tischendorf.