Parsing Huckabee and Bruce Prescott

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.ethicsdaily.com/article_detail.cfm?AID=9953

Maybe I should start another thread cause we got a lot going on here with the challenge to OBama's character in comparison with Fred Thompson.
Would Love to Bring Ware's legacy at FBC Austin in on this one, but maybe for later.

Flatulence is as Flatulence does and I guess we better leave it at that for the time being

But in a rare move I take issue with Bruce Prescott's emphasis here.
I think Prescott misses the point in the same way I suggested Prentice missed the point on the Green quote earlier in this thread.
Prescott and Ethicsdaily should be using the Huckabee bid as an opportunity to review for the world the nature of Richard Land and Mohler's SBC, and get the national media to focus on SBC and it's history with Rove and Land, not so much on the huckabee bid itself.
I'm not threading this needle very well. Maybe I did better in my attempt on my blog.
DAvid Brooks and Mark Shield are right by implication. HBee's campaign is good for the national conversation.
Ben Cole and Ginny Brant and others should be enlisted in the discussion, to see what they think about HBee's economic populism and how it can be effected.
Right now Prescott and Bob Allen, though I agree with them in the debate in the SBC, are squandering a great opportunity to make a stronger larger point explicitly, and it leaves the likes of Fineman in this week's Newsweek without a compass, a point of entry for a better explanation of how the SBC has diseased our national conversation.
Garry Wills and Balmer and Kimball can help them out; but Bob Allen and Prescott haven't framed the discussion cleanly to date; and after the SC Primary the moment may have passed.

[Stephen Fox]

From Sunday NY Times, Jan 13th:

Richard Land, the top public policy official of the Southern Baptist Convention, argued that just as small-government and foreign-policy conservatives could not win a primary without evangelicals, “I don’t think evangelicals can win without most of the rest of those coalitions.”

Sfox> Is this an indication of Land's larger political convictions and should SBC reformers like the Memphis Declaration crowd be letting their CoOp Program dollars go to this cause????

[Stephen Fox]

Berlinbleau misses the point at the Newsweek Religion Blog today.

See the 8th comment there, my effort to get this thing right.
I can only do so much.

Bruce Gourley, I need help here; or maybe I am already too far out to lunch, and we know that is not the case

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfa ... ephes.html

My comment there:

Jacques:

What you say is interesting but in someways, like Fineman in Newsweek this week on Huckabee, misses the larger point.
I have been groping at my blog and the Baptist discussion board baptistlife.com--I encourage you to visit the Huckabee/Prescott post there--to make a more significant point.
The crux of the HBee and SBC matter is somewhere in the shadows of Garry Wills Concluding chapters on the Rove Era in his Head and Heart. I think your colleague Randall Balmer would agree with me on this point, as he hints at it in Thy Kingdom Come.
It is not so much about HBee and text of KJV as it is about Richard Land and Karl Rove's strategies vs the sophomoric ideals of HBee's populism
In the SBC Inerrancy of Scripture was just a tool, a convenient wedge issue for the larger designs of Exxon Oil and tax Breaks as implemented by Paul Pressler.
Land courts Pressler and his strategy, at least winks at it; while Huckabee has contested it to some degree.
Within the SBC there are the Memphis Declaration Reformers that include among others the Daughter of Nixon's Southern Strategist, Ginny Brant.
Brant is Harry Dent's daughter.
Exploring her thoughts vis a vis the assertions of Garry Wills should be the focus for you and Fineman.

[Prentice Fox]

In the Ethics Daily article by Bob Allen, that Stephen mentions above, Richard Land is quoted quite elaborately in his commentary on Ephesians 5. He and B. Prescott have a good dialogue on Christian family; relationships, etc. Is Prescott, as the head of Mainstream Baptists an advocate for Gay Marriage?? I believe I read that somewhere. I may be thinking of another moderate Baptist Leader. Prentice.

[Stephen Fox]

two comments on Prescott's blog today; he is easily googled up and also listed at the homepage of this site, just a click away.
He was unaware of Garry wills On the Rove Era.

I think I have Prescott primed to explore land's Rest of the conservative constituencies as quoted in yesterday's NY Times.

I have every reason to believe the Leland Inst are as concerned about Land's legacy as I am and Prescott can only help.

Prescott, Flick, Gourley and I had a grand discussion at the Opry Land Hotel in Nashville in Feb 04. Randall Balmer was featured speaker for the Mainstream Event.

[Stephen Fox]

if it is not an inappropriate request; consider asking Dr. Ware in the pew in front of you and others of your progressive Faith Community if they think it is a virtuous tact, an ethical habit to bring up gay marriage every time a political or church matter focussing on justice issues come up.
Such a tactic smacks of Lee Atwater's old Fog Machine; and is the kind of thing that enabled the takeover of the SBC and the rise of the Rove Era in the GOP that brings up to this moment in South Carolina where I am trying to get you and Berlinbleau and Prescott to refocus the debate framed by Wills sublimely

[Prentice Fox]

on Stephen's post immediately before this one; it is entitled, "AND".. It appears to me to be a personal attack, something we have both vowed to not do here. Please advise; PM or here. Back to the Original Thread Subject. Mike Huckabee yesterday was the guest preacher at First Baptist of North Spartanburg, SC at the invitation of Pastor Michael Hamlet. According to AP, "Huck's" sermon was on how merely being good isn't enough to get into heaven. The AP reports that Huckabee "avoided politics entirely, instead preaching about humility and trusting in Jesus to open the gates of heaven." AP doesn't list the response to the Invitation Hymn. Afterwards, Pastor Hamlet said to the congregation: "When you go vote, follow the principles of Scripture." We will find out Saturday night if they did that. -- Prentice.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

I think Stephen has a point.

What's gay marriage got to do with anything, Prentice?

It's like you're somehow trying to discredit Prescott by bringing up gay marriage and whether or not he supports it.

Explain how Fox's post is a personal attack?

[Prentice Fox]

B'diddy, how are things out there in Texas? In case the word has not reached out there yet: The Definition of Family IS a crucial issue in this year's election, and in faith communities; and Mike Huckabee has taken a definite stand on it. His web site will spell it out for you. That is the relevance to this thread. My question was and is: "What is Prescott's stand on this issue?" Is it adverserial or not? (A Yes or No answer will suffice.) The question of the legalization of gay marriage is a very large issue in this presidential debate, B'diddy. Why does it bother you to discuss it? You almost sound heterophobic here. I think many American still have a lot of questions here, and the electorate seems almost equally divided on this issue, depending on which poll you look at. In regards to your question as to how "fox's post was a personal attack", Please read his post, "AND." It is a personal slam at me,AND "OTHERS OF MY PROGRESSIVE FAITH COMMUNITY" . In the past, Stephen made several attacks on my church and those threads were blocked. His "AND" is not a post on a forum subject but is of an attack nature, and I believe it would have better been done,( if done at all,) in a personal email or a PM here on the forum. My reference to Stephen's post being a personal affront was his words: " ask Dr. W... and others in your progressive faith community if they think it is a virtuous tact.. to bring up gay marriage..Such a tactic smirks of Lee Atwater" etc. etc." I think it is not appropriate that Stephen brought involuntarily the name of a fellow church member of mine to this thread in the derogatory manner that he has. . Most people value their privacy, and that should be respected. In a positive manner, on another thread in this forum, I introduced a book by a family member of this man; Stephen,then twists it, and makes innuendos here about the virtue of my faith community. Earlier here, and now On his blog, Steve tells us about his former faith community and its many problems with deep personal divisions and hard feelings.. I don't believe he should be making suggestions about my fellowship of believers. Our Church mission is "Hearts united in Loving God, Sharing Christ and Serving Others. Prentice.

[Prentice Fox]

In an earlier post in this thread, I asked a question regarding Bruce Prescott. It is very likely that I had temporarily and mistakenly confused him with Stan Hastey of the Alliance for Baptists; a separate organization to Mainstream Baptists. But, since the thread is on "Huckabee and Prescott", then the question of what is a family(?) remains paramount. To me, they, Huck and Pres, seem to be on different ends of the spectrum here; and they are both excellent debators. There is nothing quite like a good debate that maintains proper decorum; but don't hold your breath on it. Prentice.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Fair enough, Uncle P.

However, accusing me of sounding "heterophobic" could be considered a personal attack. Perhaps I should PM a moderator!

Fox citing Ware is fair game. After all, you're the one who brought Browning and his brother up MULTIPLE times in the last few days. I see no reason why Prescott should be asked about his position on gay marriage. But if you're asking, perhaps you should do as Fox said and ask Ware and others their position as well. If the value of privacy is to be respected - why bring up the name of your fellow church member in a thread in the first place? Weak.

Your nephew is back. But you're just looking for a petty reason to have him ousted again. Take your issues with Foxy to his blog.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Prentice Fox]

Ed, you are EXACTLY right. I am just slightly familiar with baptist history over the last 30 years. Most of my studies in Church History were BCDM (before cafe du monde) studies, like early church fathers and Martin Luther and Zwingli. In the '60's, '70's and up into the mid '80's, I was far removed from baptist politics. My job was "Protestant Chaplain," USAF(mostly in Europe, Korea, and Alaska). When I returned to civilian status in '85 to a little country church in Robeson county, I taught them the Apostle's creed, although baptists are "non-creedal" people. The "WAR" was basically over.. I was to later learn that I had some friends who were casualties in the "war." I appreciate your invitation to the NBC in Atlanta. I have considered going, mainly to meet up again with old seminary classmates(those of us who remain); but my son will be visiting from Alaska that week. He and I have some things to do on "the farm." I have not attended an SBC or CBF convention for 10 years or better; but I do remember going to a CBF convention(edited to correct ASSEMBLY at Ed's suggestion) in Fort Worth back in '92 or '93 (after my wife died). My friend Roger, CBF Pastor, tried to "fix me up" with a Texas baptist co-ed, in her late '40's; but my heart and my hopes were back in Carolina for my redemption from the dry and barren desert of batchelorhood. prentice.

[Stephen Fox]

Thank you for the assistance.

Higher ground here would bring Hankins and the Baylor folks in here with Garry Wills framing of the debate on the dogma issues Richard Land with Karl Rove's guidance was able to frame as values issues.
I have been all over the place trying to find some way to get to Ben Cole and the Memphis Declaration folks on this matter.
If you could help in that regard, maybe we could help show Prentice the way out of his two straddled (SBC and CBF) quagmire.
I do think Prentice was at the CBF National Convo in Greensboro in 93; and the a Furman Pastor's conference with James Dunn about 89; in and around Rome Georgia in the early 80's so it is not quite the case things were settled when he got back from Germany. In fact he was in Country during the Dallas 85 stuff, but I could be corrected.
He did go back to Germany for about 6 months at one time; but best I remember he wasn't away during the gutbustin time of the Baptist takeover.
I don't mean any of this as a personal attack, just tryin to see if my memory is goin on me.
I do remember some tennis matches with Isaac in another state during that time and some doubles and some singles imbroglios.

[Prentice Fox]

My church is dually aligned (SBC and CBF.) It is Not a "Quagmire", as Stephen calls it here; but it is a fellowship of believers who do not agree on everything, but who do agree that JESUS IS LORD. (The earliest of the Christian creeds.) Stephen, could you possibly share with us how you got out of the "Quagmire," and on to the solid ground in your church community ?? Many churches that were formerly all SBC are now dually aligned. I believe it will continue to be that way until CBF identifies itself as a Denomination, and then the two separate groups can March On to Zion in their respective fashions. It may not occur during Vestal's wake; but I imagine it has been discussed in the CBF board room there in Atlanta. Prentice

[Stephen Fox]

not a reference to your church but to the apparent conversation in your head where it seems difficult for you to speak consistently to the political realities and strategies that were a companion piece to the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC.
There in North Carolina bill Friday as far back as 89 put it in a nutshell, it seems to escape you and I find it quite frustrating and irritating; again not a personal attack, just groping to explain how all the logorrhea effects me.

[Stephen Fox]

The Southern Baptist Raised with Master's at Vandy had this to say at Tnr.com blog today
I hope she will take a look at Richard Land and Ben Cole and Gushee and their parsing of the SBC that shaped Huckabee.

Here is Cottle on where HBee is now

That said, it’s tough to deny that a guy whose economic policy rests squarely on the “fair tax” would be in for a rough ride in a general election. This is assuming, of course, that Huck managed to overcome the animosity directed at him from segments of the GOP less dazzled by his religious bona fides. (“Club for Greed” types certainly wouldn't mind seeing him left for roadkill on the backroads of SC.) The longer Huck stays in this race—especially with his class-warrior shtick--the longer he puts a strain on the fault lines within the Reagan coalition. This, evangelical leaders must realize, could mean serious heartache for their troops.

--Michelle Cottle

and this great comment she elicited about implicitly Huckabee's threat to Richard Land:

dbhuff said:
Huck is to evangelical leaders what Obama is to Black leaders. As viable presidential candidates, they represent the end of the reign of their respective constituencies as 'oppressed minorities' and thus the end of these leaders' mantles of power.

January 15, 2008 12:57 PM

[Ed Pettibone]

Stephen and Prentice I have no intrest in getting in the middle of a fox power struggle and I am glad to see some indicators that the two of you really could "communicate" if one or the other did not have to take home all the marbles.

So on this question of "quagmire", I am wondering if perhaps dichotomy might be a better word?

I have been in churches during a period between 91 and 98 that successfully supported both CBF and SBC. Some of those churches are now CBF or CBF/ABC-USA. Some are now Almost exclusively SBC. There are others ( where I have never been a member) that continue to support both. I am inclined to say what ever works for such churches should be strictly up to them. I know both SBC and CBF folk out side those churches who are not real comfortable with that but in my experience it seems to me that CBF folk are more tolerant of the decisions reached than are SBC folk. No doubt my view could be slanted by my association with CBF over the past many years. This may be one of the questions that Some PH.D. student in the evolving Baptist Studies Program at Mercer ( discussed by Bruce Prescott and Bill Underwood as part of Bruce's radio program where they promoted the NBC) or at some Baptist institution of higher education may want to explore. And perhaps there should be a a control study by an individual or group with no particular tie to Baptist.

I am of the opinion that for far to long most Baptist have tossed around opinions with far to little supportive evidence. As Bill Leonard is fond of saying being Baptist is messy. I have to agree with him, but I am not comfortable with it. I believe it is time to work at cleaning up the mess.

I want to go on but lets see if any one wants to go this direction.

[Big Daddy Weaver]

Unfortunately that Baptist Studies Ph.D. hasn't evolved fast enough for my educational journey.

I was very interested in the program.

[Prentice Fox]

Ed, Dichotomy is a far more accurate and precise word than quagmire is in describing the current Baptist "dilemma.'(my word) Church history, ever since Peter and Paul has been a dichotomy(division of two parts). I see the larger Christian community now as being in a Trichotomy; Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant.. IMHO, it is, and has always been, caused by Greed and the Quest for Power and Authority. I don't see the current Baptist Split,in my limited knowledge of it, as being about Theology; but rather about the simple question of "Who's in Charge?" Stephen, in his use of "quagmire", probably didn't know what he was talking about. It may be best that we all just pass (succumb) on it. Prentice.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Prentice Fox]

THAT I ATTENDED in Fort Worth, Ed. I stand technically corrected. To me, a meeting is a meeting. Is the Atlanta NBC an assembly or a convention? If so, why? Too much semantics for me. I don't remember much about the "meeting" that year in Fort Worth, but the Texas co-ed had a great personality; and we all enjoyed a great Texas steak, and some Two-step aerobics after the Great Amen. There is a Van, with people in it, from our church going to "ATLANTA." I WILL CHECK WITH OUR OUTREACH MINISTER, (Atlanta IS an outreach, the way we Tarheels look at it) to see of there is any room for the old grey fox. Prentice

[Prentice Fox]

On this day, the 29th of February, I still believe that Hillary will take Ohio this coming Tuesday; and will be in a photo finish in the state of Texas. Hillary is putting up a brave fight, and Obama has accused her of "Fearmongering." He is on the defensive now. Obama hurt Himself during the debate on MSNBC this week with his comments about doing away with NAFTA. The Canadian Government, with whom the USA has favored trading staus, has called Obama's bluff on this; currently some investigative reporting is ongoing as Barack tries to cover his tracks; but the tracks are there for all mankind to see. IMHO, the OBAMAMANIA Bubble is about to Bust!!