And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

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And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Sandy » Wed May 15, 2019 11:10 am

Lindsey Graham.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/lindsey- ... ba48ab81f4

Encouraging law breaking and ignoring constitutional provisions has become the trademark of the GOP. Graham is an attorney and these public remarks will get him removed from the bar at the very least.

We're losing our country, folks.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Joseph Patrick » Wed May 15, 2019 11:50 am

Sandy wrote:Lindsey Graham.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/lindsey- ... ba48ab81f4

Encouraging law breaking and ignoring constitutional provisions has become the trademark of the GOP. Graham is an attorney and these public remarks will get him removed from the bar at the very least.

We're losing our country, folks.


From Gerry Milligan...Sandy, I cannot disagree with your first choice. For me, there must be something in the last name that fosters hypocrisy. My vote for number two is Franklin Graham. He was so vocal about Bill Clinton's sexual escapades but now excuses donald trump's behavior. I really think that he is a very close second to Lindsey.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Rvaughn » Thu May 16, 2019 9:09 am

Sandy wrote:Encouraging law breaking and ignoring constitutional provisions...
I agree that Lindsey Graham should have kept his mouth shut and nose out of this. He is a Senator and not a political commentator. It is also hypocritical in the face of previous statements by Graham.

However, would you explain how this breaks the law? The Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination is real, a right which a defendant can exercise as a right to not testify at all, and which witnesses can exercise with discretion regarding specific questions they are asked. At least this is the way it is in civil and criminal trials. Is this different before Congress? Would you detail what you mean? Thanks.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Sandy » Thu May 16, 2019 9:42 am

Rvaughn wrote:
Sandy wrote:Encouraging law breaking and ignoring constitutional provisions...
I agree that Lindsey Graham should have kept his mouth shut and nose out of this. He is a Senator and not a political commentator. It is also hypocritical in the face of previous statements by Graham.

However, would you explain how this breaks the law? The Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination is real, a right which a defendant can exercise as a right to not testify at all, and which witnesses can exercise with discretion regarding specific questions they are asked. At least this is the way it is in civil and criminal trials. Is this different before Congress? Would you detail what you mean? Thanks.


Self incrimination has nothing to do with response to a subpoena. He could plead the fifth under oath after being called to testify. In a congressional hearing, it would simply be a matter of deciding which questions not to answer. But he's been issued a subpoena. Ignoring it or failing to appear is an act of defiance of the law, and an attempt to obstruct justice. Graham's a lawyer and knows that. But he's up for re-election and he's not nearly as popular as he once was. In spite of being one of the most caustic critics of orange hair early on, he's apparently decided he has a better chance of getting his job back by avoiding a primary challenge from one of Trump's sycophants so he has become a lunatic nut job. Trump Jr. wisely avoided Graham's legal advice.

From the article you cited:

"Also, unlike defendants, witnesses may be forced by law to testify (typically by subpoena)."

From what's been reported about this particular situation, there is prior knowledge, evidence and documentation of what Don Jr. did and said. I don't see anything there that would quailfy as "self-incrimination." This is all from the cache of documents that came out of the Cohen case.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Rvaughn » Thu May 16, 2019 10:34 am

Sandy wrote:But he's been issued a subpoena. Ignoring it or failing to appear is an act of defiance of the law, and an attempt to obstruct justice. Graham's a lawyer and knows that.
I guess that is why I am confused. The article you linked quotes Graham as saying, "You just show up and plead the Fifth..." so I didn't see him advising him not to appear. Of course the advice to plead the Fifth could still be problematic is there is no reason his testimony would be self-incrimination.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Haruo » Thu May 16, 2019 11:30 am

The other problem with "you just show up and plead the Fifth" that I see, and it's a system-wide problem, is that pleading the Fifth is only applicable to avoiding self-incrimination. If you are a witness, rather than a defendant, it's not clear to me that you have the right to plead the Fifth, and certainly it would be criminal (I think; I'm not a lawyer) to advise someone to plead the Fifth in order not to incriminate a third party.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Haruo » Thu May 16, 2019 11:31 am

And fwiw my understanding is that so far Donald Jr. has twice agreed to appear, set a date, and then simply not shown up (this was voluntary; his non-appearance is what motivated the subpoena).
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Rvaughn » Thu May 16, 2019 11:47 am

Haruo wrote:...If you are a witness, rather than a defendant, it's not clear to me that you have the right to plead the Fifth...
Yes, a witness does have the right to plead the Fifth -- when it is proper, of course. The link I gave above will explain about when it is proper. Interestingly, with a defendant it is all or nothing (you either testify or you don't), but a witness can both give testimony and plead the fifth when necessary.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Tim Bonney » Thu May 16, 2019 1:35 pm

Graham has to be one of the biggest flip floppers in both houses of congress.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Sandy » Thu May 16, 2019 2:03 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Sandy wrote:But he's been issued a subpoena. Ignoring it or failing to appear is an act of defiance of the law, and an attempt to obstruct justice. Graham's a lawyer and knows that.
I guess that is why I am confused. The article you linked quotes Graham as saying, "You just show up and plead the Fifth..." so I didn't see him advising him not to appear. Of course the advice to plead the Fifth could still be problematic is there is no reason his testimony would be self-incrimination.


Graham changed his advice after getting blasted from all sides. The day before he advised Trump Jr. not to show up.

The Huff Post wrote:A day earlier, Graham told Fox News that Trump Jr. should consider ignoring the subpoena altogether.


Either statement is a far cry from Graham's previous position on this subject. His convictions and principles change, depending on to whom they apply.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Rvaughn » Thu May 16, 2019 2:22 pm

Sandy wrote:Graham changed his advice after getting blasted from all sides. The day before he advised Trump Jr. not to show up.
If you say so. I had not heard either version, and was going by the article you linked.
Sandy wrote:Either statement is a far cry from Graham's previous position on this subject. His convictions and principles change, depending on to whom they apply.
Already stipulated. On that regard Graham had a hard battle to be the biggest hypocrite. Seems like pretty standard procedure for most Congress men & women.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Haruo » Thu May 16, 2019 4:37 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Haruo wrote:...If you are a witness, rather than a defendant, it's not clear to me that you have the right to plead the Fifth...
Yes, a witness does have the right to plead the Fifth -- when it is proper, of course. The link I gave above will explain about when it is proper. Interestingly, with a defendant it is all or nothing (you either testify or you don't), but a witness can both give testimony and plead the fifth when necessary.

Of course a witness has a right to plead the Fifth in a situation where truthful testimony would be self-incriminating. But the issue is one of pleading the Fifth where truthful testimony would incriminate someone other than oneself. That's what I don't think a witness has the right to do. But in the absence of a whole 'nother trial with the witness as defendant, one would never be able to begin to find out.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Rvaughn » Thu May 16, 2019 9:10 pm

Haruo wrote:Of course a witness has a right to plead the Fifth in a situation where truthful testimony would be self-incriminating. But the issue is one of pleading the Fifth where truthful testimony would incriminate someone other than oneself. That's what I don't think a witness has the right to do. But in the absence of a whole 'nother trial with the witness as defendant, one would never be able to begin to find out.
Sorry. I misunderstood your point. Right, it doesn't apply to incriminating someone else.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Joseph Patrick » Wed May 29, 2019 5:41 pm

Joseph Patrick wrote:
Sandy wrote:Lindsey Graham.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/lindsey- ... ba48ab81f4

Encouraging law breaking and ignoring constitutional provisions has become the trademark of the GOP. Graham is an attorney and these public remarks will get him removed from the bar at the very least.

We're losing our country, folks.


From Gerry Milligan...Sandy, I cannot disagree with your first choice. For me, there must be something in the last name that fosters hypocrisy. My vote for number two is Franklin Graham. He was so vocal about Bill Clinton's sexual escapades but now excuses donald trump's behavior. I really think that he is a very close second to Lindsey.

From Gerry Milligan...Now, my runner-up for the biggest hypocrite in the USA is calling for people to pray for the "much-maligned president" this Sunday (6/2/19). I do pray for the presidency, but not for this adulterous, misogynistic, racist. But where was Franklin's request to pray for Bill Clinton?
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Sandy » Wed May 29, 2019 10:04 pm

I've never taken Franklin Graham seriously. With all due respect to his father, Franklin is no Billy Graham.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Haruo » Fri May 31, 2019 3:30 pm

I'm only inclined to take others' prayers for the president seriously if they have consistently prayed for previous presidents. All previous presidents since they were old enough to pray. In retrospect, I pray for Nixon, though I know I didn't at the time except maybe totally tongue-in-cheek (and God can see what's in your cheek). Since several presidents have been killed while in office, I think it's a stretch to say Trump has been attacked like none other ever. But I can imagine the feeling. A lot of this hype sounds like Millerite Lite: "Get up on your rooftops and pray! There's an election coming!"
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Sandy » Fri May 31, 2019 3:34 pm

Franklin Graham wrote:President Trump’s enemies continue to try everything to destroy him, his family, and the presidency. In the history of our country, no president has been attacked as he has. I believe the only hope for him, and this nation, is God.”


I agree with his last sentence.

As far as no president being attacked as he has, well, that's a matter of opinion. I think both President Clinton and President Obama can lay clam to the same statement. What's happening to Trump is the result of his own actions and the crooks, thieves and bigots he surrounded himself with. I have trouble believing that Franklin Graham can actually be as blind and ignorant as his support for Trump and his recent statements indicate. He'd not be able to hang on to the fortune he's made if he were that out of touch.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Haruo » Fri May 31, 2019 4:29 pm

This sort of what looks like selective stupidity is precisely how many rich old men get and keep their riches. Especially in the religion industry and the media. IMO.
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Re: And the winner of Biggest Hypocrite in the USA is...

Postby Haruo » Fri May 31, 2019 4:31 pm

I thought it interesting how BNG inserted an apparently completely extraneous paragraph about Graham's position with Samaritan's Purse early on in the story.
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