Virginia Governor Northam

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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Sandy » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:43 pm

Haruo wrote:
Sandy wrote:Now I'm going to be snarky, and ask the same questions Republicans publicly pushed during the Kavanaugh hearings. I wonder who is paying her and how much? Why wait until he is Lieutenant Governor and potentially in line to be governor?

If she did not want to become further involved in a highly charged political environment, then why get involved in a highly charged political environment?

For Republicans, here's your answer. You did not believe Blasey-Ford, and she had corroborating evidence. This one is less credible and doesn't have any corroboration. You need to sit down, be quiet and let the Democrats handle their in-house issues.

Yes, that does come off as snarky. The Democrats shouldn't be left to "handle" this issue alone anymore than the Republicans should have had a free hand to "handle" Blasey-Ford. And assuming for the moment that she is being honest in her recounting of her recollection of the night in question, you have to be extremely insensitive not to be able to imagine why she might feel she needed to come forward at this point. And how do you know there's no corroboration? Wasn't there a time when Blasey-Ford's allegations looked like she-said he-said? And having watched what Blasey-Ford went through as far as death threats etc. can't you easily imagine why she might be torn about coming forward even at this point, and doing what she can to state her case without unduly opening herself and perhaps her family to danger?


Yes it is snarky, which I said, and I pretty much agree to what you're saying. I'm just pointing out the obvious. There is no way to ever know what actually happened. And the fact that the intended use of the information by the alt-right propaganda outlet that made it public is actually where this got turned inside out and forced decisions that have lost the force of their credibility. The American legal principle of "innocent until proven guilty" does not work when different perspectives of information are made public and the case is tried in full view. They came forward with the information without contacting her or getting her approval. That's certainly an injustice.

I do wish that I could understand why "blackface" dressing up and imitation was so popular, particularly in the South. I can say, pretty safely, I don't see that I could ever be tempted to do something like that. I never saw anyone else ever do it, except in television depictions. I can see why someone who witnessed something like that, especially if they were African American, would find it offensive. In Junior high, the drama club did "The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" in which one of the characters is African American. Our drama instructor took license to re-write the character because we didn't have any African Americans in our school. It was never explained but I certainly understand that now.

Being a school adminstrator has put me in the position on more than one occasion of having to make a decision affecting a kid's life when an accusation was made that another kid went too far with their words or their hands during the school day. It's not easy, especially when it is one person's word against another and there's no other corroborating evidence.
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Rvaughn » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:35 pm

Sandy wrote:There is no way to ever know what actually happened.
That's the bottom line, unless one of them decides to confess to lying. Most people will believe what they are predisposed to believe.
Sandy wrote:They came forward with the information without contacting her or getting her approval. That's certainly an injustice.
Something I had not noticed in the bits I had read was that the lady's name had been given when this originally came out. I had not seen her named (or missed it), but she clearly pointed out in her statement that they captured her Facebook post thus putting her name out with the story. Definitely an abuse. Unfortunately there is no end to this kind of stuff in the social media age in which we live.
Sandy wrote:I do wish that I could understand why "blackface" dressing up and imitation was so popular, particularly in the South. I can say, pretty safely, I don't see that I could ever be tempted to do something like that. I never saw anyone else ever do it, except in television depictions.
Like you, I've never seen this except on television (likewise, KKK outfits). Someone posted a picture on Facebook of Ted Danson in blackface at a roast for Whoopi Goldberg (who was his girlfriend at the time). This happened in 1993 and I don't recall hearing of it back then. I was just looking it up last night to see if the picture was real or faked. It was pretty weird (as reported in what I read). Apparently Goldberg helped write part of the skit and thought it was great, while it went over like a lead balloon with most of the crowd.
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Dave Roberts » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:27 am

There is no way that we in Virginia win in this. In the past 24 hours, one of the top Republicans in the General Assembly has also admitted to having edited a VMI annual that printed the pictures of several students in blackface, though he himself does not believe he appeared in any of the pictures. The racist past, as well as some of the racist present is coming to roost in several government, and all the institutions represented in these stories are supported by state funds and found it acceptable to publish this type of pictures. VMI, UVA, and EVMS are leading state and regional universities that found mocking of other races acceptable, even after they were admitted to the student bodies. By the way, if you are in VA, their graduates are in our churches of all denominations. The resignations of elected officials does not the deeper problems of the state. We are in for a rough ride.

The Lieutenant Governor is another matter. Determining whether actions in a hotel room in 2004 will take a lot of time. Until proven different, I believe the accuser, but the accused is entitled to his day in court and is considered innocent until proven guilty. Actually, he is the only one not asking for forgiveness, and the question for us Christians is, "Can we forgive the racist past of others knowing we are all in the midst of it?"

Interestingly, Rev. Al Sharpton was in Richmond yesterday at Virginia Union University, and he said that the governor and attorney general had to go He did not say that the lieutenant governor had to go. I'm not sure how that fits in, but it is disturbing.

There is a lot to be dealt with in Virginia, and our past is catching up with us--the past that we have yet to repent about. I have to wonder how this all is related to living in the state with the largest number of Confederate statues and memorials. How much are we still living in the Civil War's aftermath? Indeed, have Virginia (and many other Southern states) ever been reintegrated into the United States after our rebellion?
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:27 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:The Lieutenant Governor is another matter. Determining whether actions in a hotel room in 2004 will take a lot of time. Until proven different, I believe the accuser, but the accused is entitled to his day in court and is considered innocent until proven guilty.
Dave, I am intrigued by your comment, and wonder if you would why you believe the accuser rather than the accused. Thanks.
Dave Roberts wrote:Actually, he is the only one not asking for forgiveness...
So far he is maintaining he did not commit an assault, so it would naturally follow he would not ask for forgiveness for something he says he didn't do. (Whether or not he did, I do not know.)
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Feb 08, 2019 9:48 pm

Reported on ABC News a couple of hours ago:
2nd woman accuses Virginia Lt. Gov. Justin Fairfax of sexual assault
Through a statement released by her attorney, Meredith Watson claims that Fairfax raped her while the two were students at Duke University in 2000.

“I am telling the truth. I will not resign,” Fairfax said.
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby William Thornton » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:36 am

The Lt. Guv says the charges of rape are "demonstrably false." Curious how he plans to demonstrate this.
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Sandy » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:56 am

William Thornton wrote:The Lt. Guv says the charges of rape are "demonstrably false." Curious how he plans to demonstrate this.


Maybe the way most Republicans accused of the same thing do it. ;-)
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Sandy » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:01 am

It would be difficult to say "I believe the accuser" without evidence. When Kavanaugh was accused, there were the calls (including from a few Republicans) for him to be withdrawn. The Republicans, for the most part, intended to just push it through and ignore the whole thing, calling it a distraction and claiming the accusers were lying or were being paid off. Ultimately, a few Republicans called for an investigation. Unfortunately, the "investigation" was strongarmed by the White House and they used their political power to make sure none of the evidence the accuser had was included, so it was a sham. The legal principle is innocent until proven guilty.

Let's be fair. The Republicans have zero credibility on this subject.
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Haruo » Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:57 am

Sandy wrote:
William Thornton wrote:The Lt. Guv says the charges of rape are "demonstrably false." Curious how he plans to demonstrate this.


Maybe the way most Republicans accused of the same thing do it. ;-)

Or maybe he has an actual, demonstrable alibi (or counter-alibi: maybe he can show she was not present when she claims he assaulted her.) Maybe we will find out. In the meantime, I am going to urge myself not to get excited about it.
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby KeithE » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:02 pm

Sandy wrote:It would be difficult to say "I believe the accuser" without evidence. When Kavanaugh was accused, there were the calls (including from a few Republicans) for him to be withdrawn. The Republicans, for the most part, intended to just push it through and ignore the whole thing, calling it a distraction and claiming the accusers were lying or were being paid off. Ultimately, a few Republicans called for an investigation. Unfortunately, the "investigation" was strongarmed by the White House and they used their political power to make sure none of the evidence the accuser had was included, so it was a sham. The legal principle is innocent until proven guilty.

Let's be fair. The Republicans have zero credibility on this subject.

Amen. It is past time to hold our politicians (right/left, Rep/Dem/Indpendent) to high standards.

I’d say we should subject candidates to an FBI Background Investigation like is done with the millions of people who work with classified information. Why not? At least for candidates for President/VP, Senators/Representatives, and SCOTUS judges.

Our bar is incredibly low right now.
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Sandy » Sat Feb 09, 2019 12:48 pm

KeithE wrote: Our bar is incredibly low right now.


A few politicians actually do offer their background information prior to filing to run.

I don't think the ground should be pulled out from under women who have experienced sexual assault and come forward to report, but at the same time, the legal standard is innocent until proven guilty. One of the reasons cited by most women who have experienced this for not reporting sooner, or not reporting at all is because of the embarassment involved in bringing it public and going through the process of an investigation that becomes public. But the accused is entitled to a fair hearing and protected by the law unless and until evidence supports the accuser. I would not be in favor of changing those legal standards under any circumstance.

The bind exists here because the Democrats are much more conscientious about this particular issue than the Republicans. The GOP has demonstrated they don't give any thought at all to having men who are guilty of sexual assault in the country's highest offices and they think the women who are making the accusations are paid to do so for political reasons, or are motivated by the attention and moments of fame. So leave them and their opinions out of this discussion. An investigation, an honest one, not a sham like the one into Kavanaugh, that draws conclusions based on facts that are available is how these "he said she said" situations get resolved. Investigate. Clearly, the Democrats are going to push for action depending on whatever the result of the investigtion turns up.
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby KeithE » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:40 pm

Sandy wrote:
KeithE wrote: Our bar is incredibly low right now.


A few politicians actually do offer their background information prior to filing to run.

I don't think the ground should be pulled out from under women who have experienced sexual assault and come forward to report, but at the same time, the legal standard is innocent until proven guilty. One of the reasons cited by most women who have experienced this for not reporting sooner, or not reporting at all is because of the embarassment involved in bringing it public and going through the process of an investigation that becomes public. But the accused is entitled to a fair hearing and protected by the law unless and until evidence supports the accuser. I would not be in favor of changing those legal standards under any circumstance.

The bind exists here because the Democrats are much more conscientious about this particular issue than the Republicans. The GOP has demonstrated they don't give any thought at all to having men who are guilty of sexual assault in the country's highest offices and they think the women who are making the accusations are paid to do so for political reasons, or are motivated by the attention and moments of fame. So leave them and their opinions out of this discussion. An investigation, an honest one, not a sham like the one into Kavanaugh, that draws conclusions based on facts that are available is how these "he said she said" situations get resolved. Investigate. Clearly, the Democrats are going to push for action depending on whatever the result of the investigtion turns up.


But I'm talking about an independent review not one that the candidate “offers" up. A basic FBI Background Investigation takes about 1 week (new employees get an “interim secret” regularly within one week) and that is what I’m talking about. Trump would never have survived even that background review due to his many lawsuits, bankruptcies, charges of sexual assault, and perhaps his police record. Not sure if tax records are checked in this initial background checks, but could be added. The media does this rather haphazardly (as the political winds blow or the “opp research” demands), while an FBI investigation could be uniformly applied non-politically and could be required as a pre-condition to candidates before they formerly announce.

We want our politicians to be of high character and not be blackmailable.

Amen to the last paragraph in your post above.

As for your second to last paragraph, I am open to suggestions about any changes to the legal standards about sexual assault. With better/quicker DNA testing these days, a promise of a quiet court could be promulgated to the public resulting in quicker justice with less publicity and more rehabilitation. I recognize that the court might not be that quick (as is), but it is better than decades old cases appearing.

We are too reluctant to try new ideas in our national life. States could be test cases.
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby William Thornton » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:58 pm

Voters wanted to vote for Trump. The last thing we need is some bureaucracy of vetting mandarins. There was more negative press on Trump than any candidate in history. People still voted for him. That's our system.

But I think the Dems are doing a good job helping with his re-election campaign. I didn't vote for him in 2016. Don't know about 2020 yet.
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Dave Roberts » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:23 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:The Lieutenant Governor is another matter. Determining whether actions in a hotel room in 2004 will take a lot of time. Until proven different, I believe the accuser, but the accused is entitled to his day in court and is considered innocent until proven guilty.
Dave, I am intrigued by your comment, and wonder if you would why you believe the accuser rather than the accused. Thanks.
Dave Roberts wrote:Actually, he is the only one not asking for forgiveness...
So far he is maintaining he did not commit an assault, so it would naturally follow he would not ask for forgiveness for something he says he didn't do. (Whether or not he did, I do not know.)


He has confessed to non-marital or extra-marital relationships in saying these were consensual. Guess that part doesn't matter to most. In what you quoted first, I am saying that he has been credibly accused to the point that the testimony of the accuser must be taken seriously, but he has been convicted of nothing to this point. It is a credible but unproven accusation.
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby KeithE » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:30 pm

William Thornton wrote:Voters wanted to vote for Trump. The last thing we need is some bureaucracy of vetting mandarins. There was more negative press on Trump than any candidate in history. People still voted for him. That's our system.

But I think the Dems are doing a good job helping with his re-election campaign. I didn't vote for him in 2016. Don't know about 2020 yet.


More vetting for new DoD employees than our President ??? Rethink that.

Trump was elected based on the attitudes built up by the RW alternative press (Limbaugh, FoxNews, Coulter, .....) over the last 3 decades (funded by the likes of the Koch Brothers). And thus Americans are the laughing stock of he world.

Your “thinking” that "the Dems are doing a good job helping with his re-election campaign” is wishful thinking.
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:58 pm

KeithE wrote:I’d say we should subject candidates to an FBI Background Investigation...
I noticed in the article I read last night (and linked above, about a 2nd accusation against Fairfax) that the Lt. Governor used previous FBI background checks as a sort of defense against the allegations against him.
He (Justin Fairfax) added that he has previously passed FBI background checks and is demanding a full investigation into the claims.
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Rvaughn » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:03 pm

Dave Roberts wrote:He has confessed to non-marital or extra-marital relationships in saying these were consensual. Guess that part doesn't matter to most. In what you quoted first, I am saying that he has been credibly accused to the point that the testimony of the accuser must be taken seriously, but he has been convicted of nothing to this point. It is a credible but unproven accusation.
Thanks, Dave. But I am a little confused by your explanation. Are you saying then that what you meant when you said you believe Valerie Tyson that you just mean she has a credible accusation that should be looked into, rather than saying you believe her and think the Lt. Gov. is lying? Thanks for clarifying.

Concerning the non-marital or extra-marital relationships that the Lt. Governor says were consensual, I believe these are sinful, but that doesn't make them illegal (i.e., as long as they were consensual and not by force/assault).
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby KeithE » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:55 pm

Rvaughn wrote:
KeithE wrote:I’d say we should subject candidates to an FBI Background Investigation...
I noiteced in the article I read last night (and linked above, about a 2nd accusation against Fairfax) that the Lt. Governor used previous FBI background checks as a sort of defense against the allegations against him.
He (Justin Fairfax) added that he has previously passed FBI background checks and is demanding a full investigation into the claims.


You are right, his use of passing an FBI background check is a very minor defense point since extramarital or pre-marital consensual sex is not grounds for failing the check. Sexual assaults/rape is but is often unreported. So passing the check doesn’t legally help the accusers or accusee. Perhaps information about extramarital or premarital consensual sex are kept on file and could be useful now (but I dunno).
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Sandy » Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:39 pm

William Thornton wrote:Voters wanted to vote for Trump. The last thing we need is some bureaucracy of vetting mandarins. There was more negative press on Trump than any candidate in history. People still voted for him. That's our system.

But I think the Dems are doing a good job helping with his re-election campaign. I didn't vote for him in 2016. Don't know about 2020 yet.


Fewer people voted for him than his opponent, and not just a slim margin. Three million. I doubt he makes it to 2020 but if, for pulling some stunt or through some cheating of the system and tactical maneuver he does manage to survive the vetting of his tax returns and the Russia investigation, his being around to run in 2020 is the best news Democrats could get. We're just three months out from the electoral beating the Republicans took in the mid-terms and it looks better for Democrats than it has since the Roosevelt administration. The Democrats have some popular policy platforms but most voters realize that he's still a legislative blockade, but they voted Democrat, overwhelmingly, anyway. He lost this mid-term for the party and in places where they're not accustomed to losing.

William Thornton wrote:There was more negative press on Trump than any candidate in history.
.

ROFL. Or as the common expression goes on this board, "Baloney Cheese!" Hillary Clinton is the most investigated (and as a result the most exonerated) politician in history and the most negatively characterized by the press.
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Postby Stephen Fox » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:10 pm

implicated in blackface like incidents in the last ten years NPR reported over the weekend.

And today the black Wesleyan UMC church in Richmond rallied around Governor Northam.

National journalist Traci Thompson who was raised Southern Baptist in Georgia had a great piece on her facebook wall on all this. I'm with her and the Black Wesleyans of Richmond
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Re: Virginia Governor Northam

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:32 am

There is an interesting sidelight to this today. According to WCVE-News (NPR station in Richmond), a donor has now funded a research project for students of Virginia State University and Virginia Union University to look at all available state school annuals from the 1960's through the 1990's to see what other examples of racism are there and what other politicians may have skeletons in their political closets from the time they were in school. The donor is paying the students from the two historic HBCU's at the rate of $25/hr. to compile this research from the university libraries and archives of UVA, ODU, Wiiliam and Mary, Virginia Tech, George Mason, Longwood, Radford, Mary Washington, VCU, and other state institutions such as the three medical schools and all the law schools, public and private. This could be quite revealing for both parties. I don't recall that the name of the donor was mentioned.
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