What is moderate Baptist these days. FBC Huntsville Testcase

[Stephen Fox]

https://baptistnews.com/article/caught- ... C4t7lLsZdg

[Rvaughn]

[Dave Roberts]

Moderates, I am afraid, have never made news regularly. Being moderate means you don't get headlines regularly. You may be strong and reliable, but you don't create joy or anger readily which are the fodder for attention.

[William Thornton]

I thought this was very interesting. Will comment at length later.

Seems to me that Dave severely underplays the difficulties presented.

[Stephen Fox]

I posted on FBK wall of FBC Huntsville seeing if I could stir some discussion there. Will share later.

[Stephen Fox]

[William Thornton]

[Stephen Fox]

I believe there are some books that matter. And even folks, maybe especially folks like Trevor Collins can learn from books. If he reads some of the latest insightful scholarship, given his platform and is joined by others like him, Barry Howard for instance at FBC Pensacola, then the conversation begins at a better place rather than rewinding doing remedial work for sluggards and remain inthe quagmire of ten years or before years ago.

I had to drag you pulling and screaming to read Molly Worthen.Now Quiros comes along with insights into how real people in the pew in real Baptist churches reacted to Brown V Board and the White Citizens Council in 65. I think that is a template for how folks are reacting to similar culture forces today.

So there, if Bruce Gourley and David Gushee and Buddy Shurden think I'm a flake with that explanation, then God Help Me

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

[William Thornton]

[KeithE]

Interesting article.

Some points I know from being in Huntsville (interesting for me at least):

Travis Collins is known to have moved FBC Huntsville to the right since he arrived in 2016. I have not seen any interest in his participating in the SE Clergy Group or the Interfaith Mission Service activities as his predecessor David Hull did (as he was able); but may be just time related. FBC Huntsville who used to be my church's (Weatherly Heights BC) closest congregation did not support us in our forced departure for the Madison Baptist Association. Collins wrote book about the LGBT issue soon after he arrived, calling his view as “welcoming” but not “affirming”. Previously the people I know at FBC were more “affirming” (but I’m sure I did not and do not have view of the whole congregation on this matter). I have this book (not available on Amazon) and it is not too bad, imo (it was in fact “welcoming”). Apparently he has published a new book August 14, 2018 that I’ll have to get and read. {some stuff deleted}.

All this was fairly clear to me personally as well as I talked with Mike Pearce (Minister of Missions) throughout the transition from David Hull (a bonafide CBF supporter) to the selection of Travis Collins in 2016 (more a straddler between SBC and CBF). Namely, the tact of the search committee was to select someone more conservative. I know this from when (1) I talked about doing a New Baptist Covenant program called “Covenant of Action” aimed at joint ministry between white an black local churches in the 2015 timeframe, and (2) another time when I tried to advertise my initial “Discovery Center” classes. Mike was cordial but he had no interest in any cooperation in (1) and (2) because he knew FBC was most likely 'going a new direction'. One guy (a laymen and previous work associate - I know his name but will not give it here) stared unapprovedly at me in the office area on one of these occasions - not sure why. The Receptionist (who I also knew from previous membership at our church) apologized for the cool treatment. It was fairly clear that the fix was in the 2015-6 timeframe. Later after Travis Collins was in-place, I tried to advertise Bruce Gourley’s lecture series at our church about the Bruce had written a in 2009 and I thought many there would be interested in hearing him again. They did not advertise the lecture series although I did not give them much notice (a week IIRC).

The Music Ministry at FBC Huntsville has stayed strong under Billy Orton.

Travis Collins, my Pastor David Freeman and 3rd minister who is a prominent CBF oriented guy (but whose name escapes me right now) all grew up together in the same schools, and I believe the same Baptist church in Anniston, AL. I plan to ask David about Travis and FBC tomorrow morning (I need talk with him on other matters).

I may also call Deb McDaniel (previously very active at BL here as “Deb") what she thinks about these changes at FBC Huntsville - if she sees them. I might also call Austin Boyd (a work cohort and fiction writer I know) who I'm sure is on the conservative side.

Apart from this local stuff about FBC Huntsville church politics, I found Collins's article insightful. It is ashamed that clergy and laypeople cordon themselves off from each other due to certain controversial primarily theological stances. It is also clear that the clergy at the larger churches tend to be more liberal than the laypeople.

[Haruo]

Maybe the church (and pastor) should apply to join Evergreen. We could use a southeasternly outlier.

[William Thornton]

When I read the title with the buzz phrase, "centrist Baptist", I expected another self-serving, virtue signalling, anti-SBC screed about how the writer hasn't moved but everyone around him has moved; however, I thought it was an interesting piece.

Welcoming but not affirming.
Genuine Gospel evangelism that aims for conversions, not social gospel evangelism that aims at everything but.
OK with female deacons.
Supportive of female pastors.
Conservative but not BFM2K
Agreeable with a mix of liberal relgious conference speakers but not to the exclusion of any conservative.
No same sex relationship folks in church leadership or to be married in the church

I'd say Travis Collins was expressing about the same concerns that a few mods I know would express. Yeah, SBC would be an uncomfortable place but with less hard lines than the CBF if one goes down his list.

Looks like the national CBF has wholly embraced social gospel matters to the almost total exclusion of evangelism and discipleship. Dan Vestal was an evangelist. The outgoing ED is an activist warrior who did not seem to have viewed her role as leading anything much in the direction of traditional, orthodox evangelism and discipleship. Point me to anything that would prove me wrong.

CBF has reimagined itself away from people like Collins. The train has left the station and he and his type are left on the boarding platform watching it head leftward. The best thing about the CBF is BNG which will air out differing opinions.

If SBC state conventions follow that of the KBC and disallow dually aligned churches, I'd speculate that more of those churches that are somewhat friendly towards CBF, maybe have some people who prefer to give in that direction, will drop CBF formally and stick with SBC. I mean, how many Baptist churches are like Keith's or FBC and one other in Athens? Not many.

The CBF, seems to me, has deliberately moved leftward with Paynter, and has succeeded in narrowing its market, Collins bearing witness to that, so what's the consequence? I'd guess it is that churches pastored by folks like Collins would be lukewarm about supporting CBF causes, not that there's anything new about this. Other than that, looks like independant churches choosing from the buffet of ministry causes.

I defer to Keith on the local situation. Evidently, FBCH made an autonomous decisions that once their prominent mod/lib pastor was gone, they would like to move rightward.

In another generation will the CBF exist? Can't think of a good reason why it should, frankly. There are better choices on both the left and the right.

[Stephen Fox]

Thornton and his SBC are struck mute, cooperative with the Freedom Caucus legislators Mark Meadows of nC and and Jeff Duncan of SC. Were George Truett alive today and never left NC for Texas, Mark Meadows would be his congressman.

WilliamThornton's SBC is struck mute in the face of FBC Spartanburg's Truth for a New Generation conferences of the last two decades.

So Willie Tee, lets look at it from that perspective for what is a "centrist" congregation to do.

For sure if their literacy rate is high, and they acknowledge there are gay folks in their congregation or neighboring ones, and all of them know somebody's daughter who had an abortion, then the hypocrisy of the SBC is not for them.

Doug Dortch and Barry Howard remain CBF as does my Rhodes scholar nominee Friend Richard Kremer.

So there aint no going back.

CBF has workshops and conversations at their national gatherings to talk through these things. T

Hope you understand.

I have shared , Willie Tee, your post to the facebook wall of CBF and Baugh Center for Baptist Studies where I'm sure after my phonecall Dan Vestal will read in a few days.

I hope to be in the room in Bham this summer where this is chatted up. Another Sweet Time in Jesus to be sure.

[William Thornton]

Stephen, the rest of us have to live in the real world and deal with issues and people as they present themselves, not as we think they ought to be.

[William Thornton]

The CBF has made hard choices, part of their "journey." If leaders led them down the wrong trail, it's not the SBC's fault.

Count on me to delete every post you make that has Helms, JBS, etc. in it.

[KeithE]

[Sandy]

[KeithE]

[Stephen Fox]

Please answer before Dr. Thornton gets out of his lane. This forum is moderated by Dave Roberts. So I am under the notion Thornton cannot Delete Jesse Helms name on this forum. There is a matter of settled discourse about the fundamentalist takeover that Thornton has not embraced, and just because almost every scholar of note that I'm aware of I don't see how in the beejeesus a fundamentalist pastor from NE Georgia can get out of his lane on forums concocted by a former chair of the Baptist History and Heritage society and cavalierly frustrate me when I as a matter of course remind folks of something that is settled history in the takeover.

If I am mistaken Dave Roberts, Bruce Gourley and Haruo please tell me now. Thanks

[William Thornton]

PM Dave Roberts on this, Stephen.

[Stephen Fox]

Listen Winder friend. We go through this about every year or so. The PM does not work for me. All of you have my email address including Dr. Gourley or you can pm me on facebook Stephen M. Fox.

On many fronts you think and administer soundly, but you are very stubborn on this matter, almost a subject of press freedom and truth about a very significant political movement of the last half century.

[Sandy]

[KeithE]