Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:46 am

Dave Roberts wrote:larger church that even dared to teach "sex education" in its youth curriculum.

Second, the GOP is so bent on getting Judge Kavanagh on the SCOTUS that evangelical groups are now saying, "The end justifies the means." I'm still looking for that in Jesus' teachings (or Paul or Moses).


What has been proven to show he is not qualified to be on the SCOTUS?
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:51 am

Dave Roberts wrote:This rush to act is all about politics without principles.


This stall at all costs from the other side of the mountain is all about politics without principles.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:56 am

If the roles were reversed (GOP / DEM) would each of you be saying the same thing about the DEMS if their candidate was accused of something similar?

Is an uncorroborated accusation all it would take to stop any proceeding?

Is this really where we want to go?

If so, there will be no more people nominated. Each side can probably find someone to make an accusation (He said - She said)... then its's over.

Governance as we know it stops on any and all nominations.

Yeah... all this is political and Dr. Ford is a victim of the DEM - get power at any cost machine.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:59 am

Dave Roberts wrote:You're right about one thing, Jim. The news shows do show as much leg and cleavage as they can. If in doubt, check Fox that seems to excel at this on "Fox and Friends."


Does your noticing prove "Boys will be Boys"? :wink:
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:01 am

Sandy wrote:Except, of course, if it is a conservative justice who has been nominated to the Supreme Court. Then, regardless of the facts, he gets appointed by Republicans because his views are all that matters, not the facts, not that he's a sexual predator. Well, if Kavanaugh gets on the court, he and Clarence Thomas can discuss techniques when it comes to sexually assaulting women. Or they can draw up court guidelines of how to make a mockery of the court they serve on by ignoring facts. Maybe they can draw straws or flip coins to see which female clerks and secretaries they get. And they can talk about how politics trumps cold, hard evidence.


What facts are you speaking of in your already decided conviction of BK?
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:28 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:You're right about one thing, Jim. The news shows do show as much leg and cleavage as they can. If in doubt, check Fox that seems to excel at this on "Fox and Friends."


Does your noticing prove "Boys will be Boys"? :wink:


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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:31 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:larger church that even dared to teach "sex education" in its youth curriculum.

Second, the GOP is so bent on getting Judge Kavanagh on the SCOTUS that evangelical groups are now saying, "The end justifies the means." I'm still looking for that in Jesus' teachings (or Paul or Moses).


What has been proven to show he is not qualified to be on the SCOTUS?


Nothing has been proven, but why is the WH sitting on 100,000 documents from his federal employment, if there is nothing to hide. Of course, the Dems are only doing what they learned from the GOP to "wait until after the election when they know the will of the people."
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby KeithE » Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:42 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Sandy wrote:Except, of course, if it is a conservative justice who has been nominated to the Supreme Court. Then, regardless of the facts, he gets appointed by Republicans because his views are all that matters, not the facts, not that he's a sexual predator. Well, if Kavanaugh gets on the court, he and Clarence Thomas can discuss techniques when it comes to sexually assaulting women. Or they can draw up court guidelines of how to make a mockery of the court they serve on by ignoring facts. Maybe they can draw straws or flip coins to see which female clerks and secretaries they get. And they can talk about how politics trumps cold, hard evidence.


What facts are you speaking of in your already decided conviction of BK?


Jon, read my response on the PPP forum for a summary of of the FACTS concerning BK’s suitability.

Sandy, you need not resort to imagined sarcasm in red above.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Sandy » Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:48 am

Jon Estes wrote:
Sandy wrote:Except, of course, if it is a conservative justice who has been nominated to the Supreme Court. Then, regardless of the facts, he gets appointed by Republicans because his views are all that matters, not the facts, not that he's a sexual predator. Well, if Kavanaugh gets on the court, he and Clarence Thomas can discuss techniques when it comes to sexually assaulting women. Or they can draw up court guidelines of how to make a mockery of the court they serve on by ignoring facts. Maybe they can draw straws or flip coins to see which female clerks and secretaries they get. And they can talk about how politics trumps cold, hard evidence.


What facts are you speaking of in your already decided conviction of BK?


First of all, this is not a criminal trial, it is a hearing to determine the qualifications for a Supreme Court justice. So there's no conviction involved. Second, the facts are that there are at least three accusations of sexual assault, supported by several witnesses in each case, and other corroboration of his behavior. Those are facts. There veracity is still being verified but those statements are factual.

Apparently the standard conservatives applied to Clinton, which is basically "she said it so it must be true" is not considered here, at least, not by conservatives.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:41 pm

Jon Estes wrote:
For the record, I believe Dr. Ford was assaulted. I do not believe, with the evidence shown thus far, that anything has pointed to BK, other than Dr. Ford's accusation. He said --- She said ---- is not enough to convict. If he is guilty, he should not be appointed. If he is not... his life should not be destroyed and many on the left owe him a huge apology. I'm not holding my breath for that if no evidence comes up.


What I think gets forgotten is that the Senate isn't a court of law. This is a job interview. If someone was found to have a high likelihood of being a drunken women abusers (full proof or not) in a job interview situation that is enough reason to just go pick a different conservative judge to nominate to nominate for the job.

Job interview does not equal a trial. If you think an interviewee has a sketchy past you go with someone else. Business people do it all the time.

There are numerous conservatives that could be nominated in his stead. I don't see the need for the GOP to protect him at all costs like this.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Dave Roberts » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:59 pm

This has been all about making a big show for Kavanaugh (standing in for Trump). First, his initial hearing before the Judiciary Committee was more like a coronation than a serious questioning to learn something they didn't already know. Getting to ask questions in five-minute blocks alternating between parties meant that even if something serious emerged, the next speaker could shift the direction so no one would know or care. Then Dr. Ford's interview was handed off by the GOP to a prosecutor of sex crimes, hardly someone you would bring to get information to the surface, and again she was saddled by the five-minute rule to be sure nothing could get too far out of hand for the majority. When it came to Kavanaugh's interview, the prosecutor suddenly disappeared so GOP members could use their times to make campaign speeches, first of support for the judge and second for consumption by the voters back home. Again, even when a member had a serious moment with the judge, it could unravel during the speech by the other party members. All I am certain about at this point is that there are weaknesses in Dr. Ford's story and that Kavanaugh, despite his efforts to refute sworn testimony, came off confessing to at least two crimes in the hearing--underage possession of alcohol and contributing to the delinquency of a minor by sharing such alcohol with other minors. I think that his personality and shrill partisanship do not lend themselves to being a lifetime appointee to the Supreme Court. I certainly know that Trump will never nominate someone very far left of Kavanaugh, but Gorsich came with a clean slate at least in his hearings. I also wonder why there are still 100,000 pages of documents from Kavanaugh's service in government that have been buried by the WH.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:04 pm

Dave Roberts wrote: I also wonder why there are still 100,000 pages of documents from Kavanaugh's service in government that have been buried by the WH.


The lack of transparency is concerning.

I'm not one to think that someone who screwed up as a young person can't be a productive and good adult leader. But usually that comes after someone admits to themselves and others that they messed up and making life changes to fix that. It seems instead that Kavanaugh just wants to minimize his behavior. The more I hear about his behavior as a young adult the more he sounds like someone who, at least at one time in his life, had a substance abuse issue.

I have always held the SCOTUS to be a group of people who should be held to the highest standards as their appointment is life time. In some ways it is even more important that the SCOTUS be squeaky clean than the President as he can't be in office more than 8 years but Kavanaugh could be there for decades. It isn't an appointment to make a mistake with.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby KeithE » Tue Oct 02, 2018 4:34 pm

Tim Bonney wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote: I also wonder why there are still 100,000 pages of documents from Kavanaugh's service in government that have been buried by the WH.


The lack of transparency is concerning.

I'm not one to think that someone who screwed up as a young person can't be a productive and good adult leader. But usually that comes after someone admits to themselves and others that they messed up and making life changes to fix that. It seems instead that Kavanaugh just wants to minimize his behavior. The more I hear about his behavior as a young adult the more he sounds like someone who, at least at one time in his life, had a substance abuse issue.

I have always held the SCOTUS to be a group of people who should be held to the highest standards as their appointment is life time. In some ways it is even more important that the SCOTUS be squeaky clean than the President as he can't be in office more than 8 years but Kavanaugh could be there for decades. It isn't an appointment to make a mistake with.


Timothy, I agree. I too believe in forgiveness for youthful indiscretions but that requires remorse and rehabilitation. Not sure about substance abuse (except for excess alcohol).

His lies, partisanship and temperament during this nomination process are adult indiscretions. Those character traits should disqualified him.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Tim Bonney » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:37 pm

KeithE wrote:Timothy, I agree. I too believe in forgiveness for youthful indiscretions but that requires remorse and rehabilitation. Not sure about substance abuse (except for excess alcohol).

His lies, partisanship and temperament during this nomination process are adult indiscretions. Those character traits should disqualified him.


The substance I was referring to was indeed alcohol. Also, I'm not against the judicious consumption of alcohol. But Kavanaugh comes across as someone who cannot handle his behavior when he is drinking. We now have a 4th accusing who seems to confirm that pattern of behavior towards women while drinking.

Add to that what you've said above about his partisanship and temperament and seems it should be obvious his nomination should be dropped. But for the GOP there is a fear if they drop the nomination they won't be able to get a new one up and running before the midterm elections.

If the GOP hadn't cheated Obama out of a nomination we'd not even be here right now trying to get a womanizer put on the Supreme Court.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:12 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
Sandy wrote:Except, of course, if it is a conservative justice who has been nominated to the Supreme Court. Then, regardless of the facts, he gets appointed by Republicans because his views are all that matters, not the facts, not that he's a sexual predator. Well, if Kavanaugh gets on the court, he and Clarence Thomas can discuss techniques when it comes to sexually assaulting women. Or they can draw up court guidelines of how to make a mockery of the court they serve on by ignoring facts. Maybe they can draw straws or flip coins to see which female clerks and secretaries they get. And they can talk about how politics trumps cold, hard evidence.


What facts are you speaking of in your already decided conviction of BK?


First of all, this is not a criminal trial, it is a hearing to determine the qualifications for a Supreme Court justice. So there's no conviction involved. Second, the facts are that there are at least three accusations of sexual assault, supported by several witnesses in each case, and other corroboration of his behavior. Those are facts. There veracity is still being verified but those statements are factual.

Criminal trial or not - cfacts matter and innicent until provenuilty is an issueof fairness.

Accusation should not determine the qualifications. I hope that is not a road the country wants to go down.

Facts??? Please link me to the corroborating witnesses in each case.

Let me ask... is there any improper behavior from your growing up days that would have kept you out of ministry if done as an adult?


Apparently the standard conservatives applied to Clinton, which is basically "she said it so it must be true" is not considered here, at least, not by conservatives.

Do you think those who accused Clinton were lying? Do you think Monika was lying? Do you think when BC pointed his finger at the camera and said he never had sex with that woman... Monika Lewinski, was telling the truth? Do you think the State Police who drove Gov. Clinton around to meet up with women were lying?

I have no idea what BC did with most of the women he accused but we do know what he did with ML. We also know how HC maligned... spoke to destroy the character the women who made the accusations... Something the GOP is not doing to Dr. Ford.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:13 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:You're right about one thing, Jim. The news shows do show as much leg and cleavage as they can. If in doubt, check Fox that seems to excel at this on "Fox and Friends."


Does your noticing prove "Boys will be Boys"? :wink:


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What does God say?
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:16 am

Dave Roberts wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
Dave Roberts wrote:larger church that even dared to teach "sex education" in its youth curriculum.

Second, the GOP is so bent on getting Judge Kavanagh on the SCOTUS that evangelical groups are now saying, "The end justifies the means." I'm still looking for that in Jesus' teachings (or Paul or Moses).


What has been proven to show he is not qualified to be on the SCOTUS?


Nothing has been proven, but why is the WH sitting on 100,000 documents from his federal employment, if there is nothing to hide. Of course, the Dems are only doing what they learned from the GOP to "wait until after the election when they know the will of the people."

I have no idea why or if the WH is holding documents. I know what they are again being accused of.

The GOP does not want to wait until after the election. They know they have a majority now. Elections can go differently than the crowned expect - Ask HC.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:21 am

Tim Bonney wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:
For the record, I believe Dr. Ford was assaulted. I do not believe, with the evidence shown thus far, that anything has pointed to BK, other than Dr. Ford's accusation. He said --- She said ---- is not enough to convict. If he is guilty, he should not be appointed. If he is not... his life should not be destroyed and many on the left owe him a huge apology. I'm not holding my breath for that if no evidence comes up.


What I think gets forgotten is that the Senate isn't a court of law. This is a job interview. If someone was found to have a high likelihood of being a drunken women abusers (full proof or not) in a job interview situation that is enough reason to just go pick a different conservative judge to nominate to nominate for the job.

Job interview does not equal a trial. If you think an interviewee has a sketchy past you go with someone else. Business people do it all the time.

There are numerous conservatives that could be nominated in his stead. I don't see the need for the GOP to protect him at all costs like this.


I think you are fooling yourself if you do not think this is a trial. It may not be by the strictest of definitions but BK is on trial. His whole life is being trashed and he is being found guilty in the court of public opinion. do you support anyone at any time making an accusation against another in a job interview just to see the person being interviewed not get the job?

The DEMS have clearly stated they will do anything to keep BK from being nominated... as we hear the silence on the lies... groping... scandals... and more of the DEM interviewers.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:22 am

Tim Bonney wrote:
KeithE wrote:Timothy, I agree. I too believe in forgiveness for youthful indiscretions but that requires remorse and rehabilitation. Not sure about substance abuse (except for excess alcohol).

His lies, partisanship and temperament during this nomination process are adult indiscretions. Those character traits should disqualified him.


The substance I was referring to was indeed alcohol. Also, I'm not against the judicious consumption of alcohol. But Kavanaugh comes across as someone who cannot handle his behavior when he is drinking. We now have a 4th accusing who seems to confirm that pattern of behavior towards women while drinking.

Add to that what you've said above about his partisanship and temperament and seems it should be obvious his nomination should be dropped. But for the GOP there is a fear if they drop the nomination they won't be able to get a new one up and running before the midterm elections.

If the GOP hadn't cheated Obama out of a nomination we'd not even be here right now trying to get a womanizer put on the Supreme Court.

You are above making accusations as factual.. I thought.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Tim Bonney » Wed Oct 03, 2018 7:08 am

Jon Estes wrote:I think you are fooling yourself if you do not think this is a trial. It may not be by the strictest of definitions but BK is on trial. His whole life is being trashed and he is being found guilty in the court of public opinion. do you support anyone at any time making an accusation against another in a job interview just to see the person being interviewed not get the job?

The DEMS have clearly stated they will do anything to keep BK from being nominated... as we hear the silence on the lies... groping... scandals... and more of the DEM interviewers.


I support anyone at anytime telling the truth about sexual assault no matter what the cost to the person who assaulted them. Ford has nothing to gain and everything to lose by sharing her story. That is why most women don't reveal their abuse.

You can call it a trial all you want. But it is still a job interview for one of the highest offices in the nation. The GOP has clearly stated that they'll do anything to get a conservative on the court and have denied a sitting President his right to appoint a justice to do so. They are so desperate to put a conservative on the court it appears they'll overlook any moral failing. Blaming the DEMS for this bad nomination is pretty rich frankly after what the GOP did to get us here.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:25 am

Jon Estes wrote:

What does God say?


I assume you are referring to Matthew 5:27-30. If so, I plead guilty (and so must we all.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Dave Roberts » Wed Oct 03, 2018 8:38 am

I see last night that Trump in his MS rally, tried and convicted Dr. Ford. So much for innocent until proven guilty. The POTUS has now declared Kavanaugh innocent without any due process of claims.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Sandy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:21 am

Jon Estes wrote:I think you are fooling yourself if you do not think this is a trial. It may not be by the strictest of definitions but BK is on trial. His whole life is being trashed and he is being found guilty in the court of public opinion. do you support anyone at any time making an accusation against another in a job interview just to see the person being interviewed not get the job?

The DEMS have clearly stated they will do anything to keep BK from being nominated... as we hear the silence on the lies... groping... scandals... and more of the DEM interviewers.


Whatever happened to that principle of accepting personal responsibility for your own behavior that right wing political conservative Evangelicals used to excuse the trashing of the lives of those who they accused? Or the much-stated position of Evangelical Christians that character matters in considering the qualifications of public officials? This is a hearing being conducted by a committee of the United States Senate, under oath. What does it say about someone's respect for the law if they are willing to lie under oath in a Senate committee hearing in order to get a job as a Supreme Court justice? This isn't a lone accusation made in a vacuum. There's a context which those who knew Kavanaugh in high school and college say existed, and there's corroborating evidence from other sources about the assaults he is alleged to have committed.

True Love Waits isn't a flawed program. But it is going to continue to get difficult for conservative Evangelicals to teach abstinence if they are going to abandon their principles to excuse the past behavior of someone they want in a key political position. Perhaps, with Franklin Graham's encouragement, "True Love Waits" can become "Boys will be Boys", and they can teach girls to follow the advice of the Republican candidate for governor of Texas who ran against Ann Richards years ago, who said that if a woman is about to be raped, she should just decide to lay back and enjoy it. I never thought any politician would ever be deplorable enough to stoop below that remark, but the orange hair did it last night in Mississippi.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Jon Estes » Thu Oct 04, 2018 1:59 am

Sandy wrote:
Jon Estes wrote:I think you are fooling yourself if you do not think this is a trial. It may not be by the strictest of definitions but BK is on trial. His whole life is being trashed and he is being found guilty in the court of public opinion. do you support anyone at any time making an accusation against another in a job interview just to see the person being interviewed not get the job?

The DEMS have clearly stated they will do anything to keep BK from being nominated... as we hear the silence on the lies... groping... scandals... and more of the DEM interviewers.


Whatever happened to that principle of accepting personal responsibility for your own behavior that right wing political conservative Evangelicals used to excuse the trashing of the lives of those who they accused? Or the much-stated position of Evangelical Christians that character matters in considering the qualifications of public officials? This is a hearing being conducted by a committee of the United States Senate, under oath. What does it say about someone's respect for the law if they are willing to lie under oath in a Senate committee hearing in order to get a job as a Supreme Court justice? This isn't a lone accusation made in a vacuum. There's a context which those who knew Kavanaugh in high school and college say existed, and there's corroborating evidence from other sources about the assaults he is alleged to have committed.

What behavior are you speaking of?

Standing firm and passionately that an accusation is a lie, is not a lie.

Please show the evidence - not the accusation.

Reports are now that the FBI report shows no evidence against BK.


True Love Waits isn't a flawed program. But it is going to continue to get difficult for conservative Evangelicals to teach abstinence if they are going to abandon their principles to excuse the past behavior of someone they want in a key political position. Perhaps, with Franklin Graham's encouragement, "True Love Waits" can become "Boys will be Boys", and they can teach girls to follow the advice of the Republican candidate for governor of Texas who ran against Ann Richards years ago, who said that if a woman is about to be raped, she should just decide to lay back and enjoy it. I never thought any politician would ever be deplorable enough to stoop below that remark, but the orange hair did it last night in Mississippi.

Is it wise to take one quote from one man (which I never heard) and build a case against a whole political party.

You have read recently that a Christian man committed adultery. Using your principle... all Christian men are guilty of adultery.
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Re: Abstinence, True Love Waits flawed

Postby Sandy » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:22 am

Jon Estes wrote: Is it wise to take one quote from one man (which I never heard) and build a case against a whole political party.


I don't know. Tell your extremist right wing conservative friends that and see what they say.

Jon Estes wrote:Reports are now that the FBI report shows no evidence against BK.


That's interesting, since no one has been allowed to read it yet, and the White House is going to extremes to keep its contents from being revealed publicly. Given that the FBI director and several high ranking officials in the justice department are classmates of Kavanaugh, I think the report will be quite slanted. Since McConnell is bent on shoving this through the Senate, it will depend, as it always has, on how many Senators drink the koolaide, and how many believe their job is being honest and having integrity. There might be a few Republicans who will actually show a conscience, and make the orange hair move on to someone else. If not, well, McConnell seems to be quite afraid that the ballot box will remove some of his GOP scum.

To jog your memory,https://www.nytimes.com/1990/03/26/us/texas-candidate-s-comment-about-rape-causes-a-furor.html

Preview of orange hair.
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