Liberty U Gone Berserk

[Haruo]

Did the IRS ever get back to him to discuss the $97 bucks? I recall the Catholic archbishop of Seattle, the late Rev. Hunthausen, engaged in a similar tactic vis-a-vis taxes and military spending. Don't recall the details, but this definitely reminded me of that.

[ET]

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

[Sandy]

Pretty much ever since Reagan's days, it seems that conservative Christians have been adjusting their Biblical beliefs in order to advocate for the rich getting richer. But I think the reaction to groups and leaders like this one from "Evangelical leaders" like Falwell Jr. is just jealousy over the fact that they are drawing the whole generation of younger people that Evangelicals aren't. They're not going to get them back by compromising on the teachings of Jesus.

[ET]

[KeithE]

[Sandy]

[KeithE]

[Haruo]

Michael Novak is clearly a strong advocate of worker unionization.

[Dave Roberts]

Getting back to the topic of this thread, I ran across an article yesterday that, while lengthy, has a great deal to say on the subject of this thread.



I would be interested in your reflections.

[John Sneed]

Dave,

I read the NYT article and it was exactly what I expected from the NYT, which has stopped objective journalism some time ago and has become a rah-rah newsletter for the Democratic Party. I have made no secret on this forum than I am a Liberty alumni (BSc '94) and I am proud to say so. When I went to Liberty, I was in the Air Force, stationed at Offutt AFB, Nebraska running the construction management section there. I took my courses, as mentioned in the article, by video tape. When you enrolled, you would receive a big box in the mail a few days later. It would have several video cassettes with all the course lectures on them. It would have the textbooks and the tests, which were in sealed envelopes that you were supposed to give to your proctor. The proctor had to be someone not related to you with a degree equal to, or higher, than the one you were pursuing. My proctor was my boss, the chief of the engineering branch on base civil engineering.

I have attended colleges in residence. At the community college level I took classes at Metropolitan Community College in Omaha. I attended at four year university at Weber State College (new University) in Ogden, Utah (were I was stationed, and also got married there). I have done graduate work in residence at Minot State University in Minot, North Dakota, when I was a pastor there. All this is to say that I know the difficulty of the coursework at a "brick and mortar" school. And I know the difficulty of course at online schools. Except for my associates degree from the Community College of the Air Force, all my accredited degrees were gained through distance education. When I went to Liberty the distance program was called the Liberty University School of Lifelong Learning (LUSLLL). I have never felt the coursework I did at Liberty was second place to any of my in-residence work. I have always been proud to be a Liberty alumni.

I picked Liberty because I wanted to be a pastor when I retired from the service. I needed to go to school online because I was in the Air Force at the time. I spent considerable time researching various schools, both accredited and non-accredited. In the end, I settled on two schools, Moody Bible Institute, which offered a BA in Biblical Studies, and Liberty. I chose Liberty because I was Baptist and Liberty had better name recognition among Baptists than Moody did.

For all the hoopla, Liberty is a solid school with an accreditation equal to the finest schools on the east coast. Foe the few who felt it was less than what they hoped for there are thousands who study hard and are proud to hang their Liberty diploma on the wall. Liberty has prepared me very well for my future education. Although I am older, I am in a PhD program right now in educational leadership focused on education reform. Yes, at an online school. I have been a lot of places and done a lot of things, and Liberty gave me a good foundation for everything that came after. The NYT doesn't like Liberty, I get that. But seriously, what did you expect from them?

I don't usually post long posts like this. I must be getting bolder as I get older. Thanks for listening (or reading) my rant.

John

[John Sneed]

Keith,

America has always been the land of equal opportunity. But there are an increasing number of voices, right now mostly is academia but also sometimes in the political sphere, who are calling for the equality of outcome. As the political left is becoming more open and aggressive with their socialism, more and more are insisting that everyone has a right to the same things everyone else has, not opportunity, but outcome. You may need to rethink part of your reply to ET. Just saying.

John

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

[KeithE]

[John Sneed]

Keith,

Thanks for engaging me on the topic. I would be happy to respond, maybe in another thread devoted to the topic of opportunity and outcomes. Right now, I am supposed to be writing a paper on the Bologna Process of Higher Education Reform in Europe. So, be patient with me. But I think our topic is one worthy of a couple of posts (tasteful understatement). I agree with part of your post and will do more to support my contention about calls for equality of outcomes. Till then, be well.

John

[John Sneed]

Keith,

You are right to call me out on being more specific. My mention of the Democratic Party in the above post was aimed more at the NYT being more left leaning, and thus antagonistic to anything conservative, Including Liberty University. I was not trying to say that there was a specific mention of Democrats or the Democratic Party in the article itself. I appreciate the chance to clarify my thinking there. I will work to be more even-handed in future posts. Again, I appreciate you taking the time to engage my post and your kind words about my military time. I wish you well and look forward to our future conversations.

John

[Dave Roberts]

Actually, if you read the article carefully, you may have noted that it did not originate with the NYT at all but with a group, ProPublica This statement comes from their website, which also, by the way, does not mention Democrats anywhere.

[John Sneed]

Mea culpa Dave. Good call.

John

[Sandy]

A little off the original topic, but this has been discussed before, and no evidence has been offered to support the statement that the New York Times is a "rah-rah newsletter for the Democratic Party." That's a standard accusation that comes out any time a mainstream media outlet fails to be a "rah-rah newsletter" favoring conservatives, and reports facts which are not always favorable to their image, but that's not an indicator of bias.

The facts, as reported, are that Shane Claiborne, with Red Letter Revival, offered to come to the campus of Liberty University and pray with Jerry Falwell Jr. while conducting services in Lynchburg. Falwell stated that if he came on campus, he would be arrested. I don't see anything "biased" about that, but I guess conservatives think it is biased to even report it.

I've got some conservative friends and colleagues who are prone to criticize the Times and the Washington Post. They'll bring up some conservative talking point about an event that has happened, and say "Well, you won't catch the New York Times or the Washington Post reporting about that." I'll google it, and while it isn't always the case, the majority of the time, the Times and the Post are the top two sources that come up with information on whatever they've been talking about.

[Dave Roberts]

In reading the story John told us about his experience with Liberty U back in the 1990's, I realize he was having a different experience from what I am seeing now. The first difference is that, John, you actually got tapes from professors. Now most of the teaching of online courses is reported as being assigned to adjunct faculty, a less expensive alternative for schools. Second, I watched a young lady in one of the churches where I have served in interim. She was doing an MBA with the business school. What she had to do was to read a book, do worksheets on the book, write some possible solutions to proposed business problems, and take two exams, both open book. She had to have a proctor for the tests who had at least a masters degree, so I agreed to let her come to the church office and take the exams in a vacant office next to mine. She will soon have her MBA, but she will not have the skills to manage at a level appropriate to someone with an MBA because her only link to the adjunct faculty was through blackboard--post a note and someone will get back to you. No one screened her at all for her leadership ability or maturity to be in a graduate program. She is paying a lot of money for a degree that will never help her because there is no link in it to "real-world" experience. She is doing clerical work for a government agency. Her degree will not help her with the work she is doing nor give her the skills to rise, at least based on the course work that I saw.

[Tim Bonney]

Dave,

That doesn't sound like it meets the standards for good online education! I know a lot of colleges and universities are doing online programs. But usually that at least involves watching lectures online and interacting online with the instructor.

You are certainly right about adjuncts. Most schools have far more adjuncts than full-time faculty. It is cheaper, there are no benefits, and if class sizes go up or down they just hire more adjuncts or let you go. Also, for many undergrad classes a Masters Degree is all that is required to teach.

While I've personally benefited from the adjunct setup, it means less and less students are hearing from someone with a PhD in their field. And, I also see a lot of shortcomings with movement to online class environments that won't be like your work place.

[Haruo]

Surely there's an app for the parts of the job you weren't trained for.

[Tim Bonney]