A future Baptist Pastor

[Jon Estes]

I hope I get him in one of my classes.

[Dave Roberts]

Sadly, what I am seeing from their online students is not a good fit for pastors. Most of them come out with good academic credentials and a fairly good knowledge of Bible and theology, at least from the Liberty perspective. What I am seeing as missing is the knowledge of how to work with people in a church. I have watched some who have come to my area, and there is no training they have received in basic care for people and working within the structure of the church to help it grow in kingdom causes. I wish this were only my perception, but I'm hearing it from others in the BGAV who are dealing with Liberty grads in churches. Indeed, some of those coming to be pastors have never been in a group setting or a classroom to get their degrees. While I realize that educational models are changing and economics are working against traditional theological education, I can't see us accepting a medical doctor who took all his or her courses online, and I think there are definite comparisons for ministry.

[William Thornton]

I think Dave is onto something.

Aside from that...happy to see NE lose.

[Haruo]

Jon, where are you teaching?

[JE Pettibone]

[Jon Estes]

[Haruo]

I figure if Liberty U gave us (i.e. the world) , they're not all a bunch of dimwits. Not to say I condone all of their humor, and like SNL I don't think they've improved over the past 15 years or so.

[Jon Estes]

[Dave Roberts]

[JE Pettibone]

[Jon Estes]

[Tim Bonney]

I know online education is an important need right now. The Associate Pastor at our church is taking some online classes right now through Iliff in Denver. But UMC limits the amount of classes you can do online verses classroom time. Right now I think you can only do 25% of your education online. I'd not be surprised if that isn't adjusted later. But I do think some component which requires hands on work in the church through an internship or other managed field work is important.

You can get the best education in the world but without some experience you can get yourself into a lot of hot water fast.

[Haruo]

After my dad got his BD from BBDS in 1945-6 (the actual awarding of the degree was postponed pending payment of library fines), and married my mom (1946), they moved to the Boston area, where he got a job as youth pastor at FBC Malden, where he was supervised by Rev. Hillyer Stratton for a year or so. During the same year he completed his STM at Newton (later part of Andover-Newton, which now I believe has been sort of folded into Yale). They moved back to the Puget Sound area and he had two brief pastorates (Grace Baptist, Tacoma, and Calvary Baptist (now Wedgwood Community Church), Seattle. By 1952 he had had enough of pastoring and moved on to his great calling, campus ministry, at the University of Washington, where he served as the minister at the Baptist/Disciples Student Center which morphed into Koinonia Center (forerunner of the later Covenant House). He gave enormous credit for his lack of total failure in church pastoring and his great success in campus ministry to the guidance he received from Dr. Stratton.

Hillyer Stratton in 1938

[Sandy]

I'm not that familiar with online seminary programs. I know that there was a massive amount of field experience and practicum coursework required for credit when I got my degree at Southwestern, and many of the courses I took, particularly those in education, had a required field experience project. I can list at least eight different churches, besides my own, where I did some sort of supervised ministry project or internship either as a credit class, or part of a class requirement. I know online programs have trouble getting enough field supervisors. I've taken online coursework, and it has been a major development over the past decade in the education field, and both of those experiences have led to me not being a big fan or advocate of it.

[Dave Roberts]

My wife has been an adjunct community college teacher who did in person classes. What she was finding was that many with online credit knew how to answer questions and read books, but what often seemed missing was relating the learning to life itself and compartmentalizing classes without an overall structure.

[Rvaughn]

[Tim Bonney]

[Jon Estes]

[Dave Roberts]

I have also encountered LU grads with a "bachelor in Bible" who say their degree is just as good as a seminary degree. Obviously, they have not put in the time.

Jon, I agree that some ministers do not do well. One of the things we are working with in CBF is having cohorts of those in their first ministerial placement who get continuing attention for mentoring and help with the issues that arise. Our son took part in one of those that he found quite valuable. Also, Peer Learning Groups can provide a place of support for new student. My point is that there has to be something.

I guess I'm more familiar with Liberty than most since I have been in VA since 1994, have had family in Lynchburg through the years, and know the Falwell story all the way back to the 1950's. Not all of it has been favorable. I have also had LU grads in churches, some among the finest people I have known, and a few who could sour you on anything coming off Liberty Mountain.

[Jon Estes]

[Dave Roberts]

[JE Pettibone]

Jon : The “my undergrad degree is as good as...” came about when seminaries were producing many who were graduating with a liberal degree. We heard the same thing when I was at Criswell 37 years ago. At the time, it made sense.[/quote]


Ed: No Jon, it did not make sense then nor does it make sense now. In the fist place no one has ever graduated from an SBC Seminary with "a liberal degree" . I do recall the founder of Liberty University saying that he was joining the SBC because
it had become fundamentalist enough for him to support it.

[Dave Roberts]

Let me go ahead and give you a bit of personal history. Two of my pastors gave me advice as a possible young minister that I do not hear much any more. It was the advice that on going to college not to get a degree in religion or biblical studies. Rev. Claxton Hall, who was a friend and mentor until his death in 2010, told me that I needed to know something about other things as well as the Bible. My college pastor, Dr. Wade Darby, stressed the same mantra. I left college with 9 hours in the religion department and six were required courses. My degree had a major in English with minors in history and German. Their concern was that concentrating too soon shut down the course of your learning. I gave the same advice to our son as he headed to college. I realize that liberal arts degrees are out of favor economically, but we in ministry need a wide range of learning, not just a trip through Bible and theology alone.

[JE Pettibone]

[Sandy]