Thought Provoking Editorial

[Sandy]

I couldn't care less.

[Jim]

[Sandy]

If you want to be accurate, the UMC is one body, divided into regions, and as a body, it has gained over 4% in membership and attendance over the past three or four years. Maybe Timothy can explain to you how they track membership. It is more honest, and accurate than the SBC ever thought about being.

But, the point is that "evangelical" denominations and churches are now declining, in most cases over the past decade at a rate that is comparable to the liberals, and the decline parallels the political shifts made by the "religious right", a group that overlaps "evangelicals" significantly. Arguing about the differences between the Baptists and Methodists isn't the point, the point is that right wing political activity parallels steepening, sharpening declines in Evangelical, and Southern Baptists if you include them as such, membership and attendance. I cited evidence showing that, but the best evidence in this discussion is the reaction to the article Dave posted from the self-proclaimed "conservatives" on this board. Your reactions say, in clear terms, that the author's thesis is a fact.

[Rvaughn]

[Sandy]

[KeithE]

I can’t read the leadoff article due to having used up my monthly allocation of Wash Post readings (like John Sneed and Haruo). So I really cannot comment this topic, except to tell Jim he is plain wrong about the SBC losing only 0.05% in membership in the last decade.

Baptist News June 9,2017. That is down from a peak of $16M in 2007 or down 6.2%. Not as bad as the UMC which rvaughn details as losing 21% in 20 years (from UMC official source as of March 2017) - good stuff rvaughn.


In the latest Nurturing Faith Journal, there is a similar article based on a study by Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) released Sep 6, 2017. I will start a new topic on that.

[Jim]

[KeithE]

[Jim]

[Haruo]

7.2 million times 212 is 1 billion 526 million 400 thousand. Leaving out a period can make all kinds of a difference!

[Dave Roberts]

It amazes me how the rhetoric of distraction seems to work. Rather than ever admitting a problem, it's easier to say, "But look at how much worse things are with ___________. As long as someone else has bigger problems, we don't need to face our own.

[linda]

I know it is more fun to argue theology and politics, even on Christmas Eve.

But here is a nagging suspicion based solely on my experience with my family and friends.

Why are evangelical churches bleeding members? The older folks either got pushed out for not being the target demographic or because the music now hurts their ears, especially if it makes the blasted hearing aid screech.

The middle aged folks find other middle aged folks trying to lead while dressed/coiffed/shaved to try to look like younger hipsters hysterical, but they would rather worship at home than face that. Plus being squeezed financially they cannot go one more "tithe even on your insurance benefits" sermon.

The younger folks studied all this "here's how to raise or lower heart rates, release specific endorphins, and control mood with sound levels, beat, and lights" in middle school and now that they are old enough to reject inauthentic worship they do so in droves.

The teens and kids are missing with no adults left to run the programs.

Just my story and I'm sticking to it)

Merry Christmas!

[Sandy]

I don't know where Jim is getting his numbers, but the SBC has lost slightly over a million members over the decade, right at 200,000 in just the last statistical year, and that's according to their ACP profile. The UMC has lost about half a million over the same period of time, according to their way of keeping stats. The SBC has seen its average weekly attendance drop 500,000 out of what was about 5.4 million over that same period. But regardless of the numbers, which are a major problem, the point is that Evangelicals are in the same cycle of declining membership and attendance now that they once criticized the mainline churches for being in, and they are ignoring the reason why.

[JE Pettibone]

Ed: Sandy, are you suggesting that there is a single cause for the wide spread decline in both church membership and attendance?

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

Who knew that I’d step away for a few days and you all would be arguing about Methodist statistics?

I’ll answer any question I can but I’m not familiar enough with SBC stats to do a fair comparison. What Sandy says seems accurate to me but I’m not nearly as familiar now with how the SBC tracks membership as how the UMC does.

As said above, the UMC is an international Church. Yes, you can get stats for inside and outside the US. The UMC is world wide and not just an US institution.

As a world wide institution the UMC is growing. Membership loss is largely in the US. Some of the best analysis I’ve seen suggests that membership loss among white UMCers is in big part a function of birth rate. I see few anglo UMCer with more than two children. But as our denomination’s membership has always been strongest in small towns, farming families used to be much larger. So churches complain that the children’s programs over all have shrunk faster than the adult programming. The UMC is growing very quickly in Africa and South Korea.

We do keep pretty accurate statistics because our connectional nature demands it. I have reports on membership, baptisms, etc. that I am required to turn into the District Superintendent every year and I’m responsible for the accuracy.

I’m not sure what all the statistical data has to do with the main point of the thread. But, I hope you all had a blessed Christmas!

[Tim Bonney]

[Jon Estes]

I am not sure if looking at the statistics of an organization like the SBC or UMC in decline or growth is able to give a fair picture of anything.

Looking at the local church (where church growth takes place) is a better place to judge.

In the SBC, there are many churches which are growing... numerically and spiritually. I think the same could be said about the UMC.

Likewise, there are churches in each organization which are declining.

Then there are too many factors in such a large swatch of churches geographically to say this is the reason for the decline. Some communities are declining -- therefore... Some churches do not want to grow or their definition to what growth they will have is all wrong (find more just like us).

With that said... The conversation seems a waste of time. Then again, a case could be made many places waste a lot of time of a lot of things in the name of church debate/discussion. If we didn't spend so much time on things like this, we might find more time to be involved in church growth things at our local church.

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Jon Estes]

I’m not sure what reactions you speak of. Taking a political side is not the reason for decline... it is spiritual apathy.

Blaming a non-spiritual anything for such is simply ignorant.

[Sandy]

[Jim]

Professional religionists (pastors, seminary profs, publications) either will not or cannot face the fact that endorsing such things as foreknowledge (actually predestination) will not wash now. The idea that God created everything (especially people) with the sure knowledge that it would be terribly flawed or that God knew from before the creation everything that would ever happen and every person who would ever live, especially knowing how terrible such things as wars, etc., would be, is to display God as a mendacious puppeteer, thus negating all pseudo-logic insisting only upon God's love, never mind the carnage. In both the mainline and evangelical groups, Calvinism is predominant and most of it is simply incomprehensible even to the young, much less older thinkers. Jesus (and other NT writers) made it very clear that walk goes before talk with regard to evangelizing, that is, physical help before sermons. Until both clergy and laity shut up about heaven and hell for a while and stress service, unbelievers will simply snicker, and rightfully so. This means financial sacrifice, something that's collectively entirely foreign to today's church, is vital. First, walk the talk, then talk the walk.

[Rvaughn]

I don't know, but would guess that the UMC and SBC share in common decline among white people in the South. If that is correct, it suggests to me that something more is going on rather than folks bailing because of politics.

In that vein, I thought back over reasons (or excuses) folks gave/give for not visiting or coming back to churches I have been a member of or pastored. Only one person has ever mentioned politics. This was someone we invited to our church, who was out of church and had been for years. I don't doubt the sincerity of his reference to politics, but if he were of so mind to try he could find a church that isn't politically oriented (and he hasn't been willingly to try ours yet, either). I think over the 20th century there was a big shift in the general "worldview" of many southern white folks so that church is not high on their priority list. Of other reasons I think of that people gave for not liking churches I have been in, I can say that if they wanted to go to church they could have found a church whose theology and/or practice fit what they claimed to want.

[Tim Bonney]