More ammo for gun control!

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Re: More ammo for gun control!

Postby Sandy » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:40 pm

William Thornton wrote:They're still dead and David's numbers are right?

We just had a misleading graph that used percentages.


Either the rate in Chicago increased by 65%, according to David's source, or 59% according to mine. Since I don't trust the Daily Wire, I'll put a little more faith in five thirty eight, which are not from a notably biased source. But that's just a diversionary tactic, not the issue anyway.

The point that the DW is trying to make is that Chicago should have far less shootings than it does, because it has a restrictive gun ownership law, and that clearly it isn't working, and therefore, restrictive gun laws don't work. There's clearly a reason they don't work there, though in comparison, Chicago's law appears to be more effective than what St. Louis, Baltimore or the other cities with higher shooting rates than Chicago. But, as I pointed out, Chicago's law isn't as restrictive as Boston's, or the state of Massachusetts, which has a much lower shooting rate. So clearly there are other factors at work other than the ineffectiveness of gun control laws, which is the circular, flawed argument of those opposed to anything except open ownership of weapons for the purpose of murder.
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Re: More ammo for gun control!

Postby William Thornton » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:18 pm

There are "other factors" and misleading stats used in most everything discussed here. But if you're locked in tight to the DNC tractor beam there's not a lot of choice.
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Re: More ammo for gun control!

Postby Sandy » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:38 pm

William Thornton wrote:There are "other factors" and misleading stats used in most everything discussed here. But if you're locked in tight to the DNC tractor beam there's not a lot of choice.


:lol: That's pretty much the standard argument from those who don't want to do anything about the problem. There's been a cumulative effect of events like this on public opinion, to the point where there seems to be a willingness on the part of a lot of Republicans to jump on the DNC bandwagon at this point, regardless of how tight the tractor beam might seem to be. And it seems like change, though slow, was already making its move before this shooting helped accelerate its forward progress.
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Re: More ammo for gun control!

Postby Rvaughn » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:47 pm

Interesting read that was in our newspaper last night:
After Las Vegas, we have bipartisan hypocrisy on guns
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Re: More ammo for gun control!

Postby KeithE » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:58 pm

Timothy said on another Topic:

According to a Washington Post study 78% of Americans don’t own a gun. Of the 22% who do 50% of all guns owned in the US are own by 3% of the population and the other 50% is owned by 19% of the population.

I’m having a hard time figuring out whose rights we are protecting, but I’m not all that sure it is the majority.

I’m not against people owning a gun. But I can’t see a single good argument for bump stocks, automatic and semi-automatic weapons. And with 50 people killed and 500 injured what I noticed most is that the US isn’t likely to do a d*mn thing to fix any of it.

At this point I don’t care if you are a Dem or a Republican. It’s unconscienable that we aren’t going to do something.
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Re: More ammo for gun control!

Postby Jon Estes » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:10 pm

KeithE wrote:Timothy said on another Topic:

According to a Washington Post study 78% of Americans don’t own a gun. Of the 22% who do 50% of all guns owned in the US are own by 3% of the population and the other 50% is owned by 19% of the population.

I’m having a hard time figuring out whose rights we are protecting, but I’m not all that sure it is the majority.

I’m not against people owning a gun. But I can’t see a single good argument for bump stocks, automatic and semi-automatic weapons. And with 50 people killed and 500 injured what I noticed most is that the US isn’t likely to do a d*mn thing to fix any of it.

At this point I don’t care if you are a Dem or a Republican. It’s unconscienable that we aren’t going to do something.


Do what?

Pass a law you can't build horses tall so a shooter can't use them to do what this evil man did?

Pass a law that you can't own more than a specific amount of guns? Criminals know how to buy guns illegally and will to commit a crime they are set on doing.

Pass a law that says magazines can only hold so much? How do you retrieve the 20 million out there.

Living in a free society has its down sides.

I'm good with a mental health law if this can be determined without big brother putting names on a list without a true measure. Then again, if it is a criminal, they will find what they need to commit the crime they are bent on committing.

I do not have a gun. I support others to have them. I love going to target range. Hunting when possible.

Your percentages do not show the whole picture. Many do not have guns and support those who do.
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Re: More ammo for gun control!

Postby Sandy » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:57 pm

Do what? Do what works. This isn't like having to re-invent the wheel. Living in a free society does have its down sides, but where's the protection for the lives of people as opposed to protection for the profits of gun manufacturers and sellers? I've heard all the arguments, this is America, it's different, we're bigger, blah, blah, blah. There are a number of countries, and there are also a number of cities, counties and states which have shown how to balance the right to bear arms with the effective ability to protect the rights of citizens to security and safety.

Things like this tend to move slowly, but the history of gun violence in the US since Sandy Hook seems to be reaching the point of putting enough pressure on lawmakers to make some changes, and do the right thing. Political pressure can be pretty intense at certain times, and given what appears to be developing, it must be very intense right now as far as this issue is concerned. Bills in Congress, written by the NRA appear to have stopped moving dead in their tracks. There is actually talk about doing things the NRA has considered taboo for decades, coming from Republicans. Do what? I think we may soon see.
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Re: More ammo for gun control!

Postby KeithE » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:26 am

My comments in red.
Jon Estes wrote:Pass a law you can't build horses tall so a shooter can't use them to do what this evil man did? Huh? Who has suggested tall horses?

Pass a law that you can't own more than a specific amount of guns? Criminals know how to buy guns illegally and will to commit a crime they are set on doing. But making it illegal will stop many from owning arsenals. Should we not have seat belt laws since they do not always prevent auto deaths?

Pass a law that says magazines can only hold so much? How do you retrieve the 20 million out there. You can stop future magazines and I suspect many wives who would report their husband - I know my sister would have

Living in a free society has its down sides. Living in the most violent high income country has a bigger down side.

I'm good with a mental health law if this can be determined without big brother putting names on a list without a true measure. Then again, if it is a criminal, they will find what they need to commit the crime they are bent on committing. Glad you don't really want mental cases (Alzheimers, anger issues) owning guns. Criminals should also be on a “no buy list”. Again not being 100% effective does not mean even only a 50% effectiveness would not help.

I do not have a gun. I support others to have them. I love going to target range. Hunting when possible. I don't own one myself. I could support someone owning 1 style for self-protection and 1 style (maybe a rifle) for hunting (they can use either for target practice).

Your percentages do not show the whole picture. Many do not have guns and support those who do. Virtually no one wants a total ban on guns. Below are opinions about the common sense gun laws being considered.

Here is what Americans thought (as of Aug 2016) about the common sense gun control laws that are under consideration now. And that is before Las Vegas. Most (probably greater than 75%) want a ban on “bump stocks” after LV; even the NRA is open to that and Paul Ryan is offering a bill to that effect.

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Re: More ammo for gun control!

Postby Haruo » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:51 pm

KeithE wrote:My comments in red.
Jon Estes wrote:Pass a law that you can't own more than a specific amount of guns? Criminals know how to buy guns illegally and will to commit a crime they are set on doing. But making it illegal will stop many from owning arsenals. Should we not have seat belt laws since they do not always prevent auto deaths?

Looks to me like here Jon is on the opposite side of the argument about the efficacy of laws from where he stands in the rape-of-a-six-year-old thread. Dave there takes up the position that Jon holds here.
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