Veteran of Southern Baptist Calvinist ‘reformation’ reflects

[Tim Bonney]

It is interesting your conversations about keeping membership stats.

Years ago the amount Methodist churches paid to the denomination (apportionment) was based on your active membership. So churches were quick to remove people from the rolls who didn't attend for several years. Now it is based on income so now membership has no effect. So now, like I experienced in Baptist churches, the local church is reluctant to remove members from the roll for fear of hurting feelings, etc.

My estimate over the years has been that many church's membership is inflated anywhere from 1/4th to a 1/3rd of the real actual participants in the church. That is anecdotal I know. But I think it likely that most church membership stats are inflated somewhat and that our actual decline as denominations is larger than most people would be willing to admit.

[William Thornton]

Generally, SBC church membership stats are comparable over the years. I would guess that there has been some trend over the decades in how churches came up with these numbers but from one year to the next I think they can be used to make a comparison. I don't see any sbc leaders blaming losses in membership to changing the way churches report data.

My three churches were all membership heavy but not absurdly so.

[Tim Bonney]

[JE Pettibone]

[Sandy]

Lifeway used to play a big role in keeping track of the SBC membership stats, especially related to Sunday School.

The discrepancy in membership in the SBC must be pretty big in many churches. The reported total membership has fallen to just north of 15 million, which reflects a loss of about a million over the course of a decade. The average weekly worship attendance has dropped by more than half a million during the same time. But there's a wide variance between the membership of 15 million, and the average attendance, now just a bit south of 5 million. And the way Southern Baptists do church membership, that means 10 million people who were baptized by immersion, not as infants, have made a decision somewhere along the line not to attend an SBC church. Probably a lot of those have gone to non-denominational churches that don't track or transfer membership, and some of those are most likely dead. But that's still a large figure of inactive membership.

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

Sandy, to another part of your question, I don’t think any more Methodists are out of touch with their local church than any other denomination I’ve been a part of in recent decades. The average church attender still attends but less frequently than they used to. From what I read now regular attendance to a lot of people means a couple of times a month rather than the every week attendance you and I grew up with.

[linda]

I have no clue how Calvinism is affecting the SBC. But I do know the local church has 3 less attending/members because of it:) Our local choice was hyper Cal and/or hyper Cal hyper fundy YEC. We loved the UMC services but being conservative, don't attend there. Local church here is more conservative than the whole denom, but we found more to our liking the Church of the Nazarene. And yet our church, we are told, lost members years ago when the CotN decided dispensational teaching was not in accord with Wesleyanism. Local church is still, however, a blend of those theologies. Sort of dispy/Arminian.

So I guess theological change does sometimes result in folks leaving a given body.

My question: do ya'll for see a coming split in the SBC into two conventions, modified Arminian and Calvinist?

[Haruo]

[Sandy]

[Rvaughn]

[William Thornton]

[Haruo]

Is "Traditionalist" preferred by both sides as an antonym to "Calvinist", or is it only the Traditionalists that like to be called that? I remember a number of other cases in both secular and religious/SBC politics where there has been a lack of consensus over whether to call it, say, the Conservative Resurgence or the Fundy Takeover. Whether to say "alt-right" or "virulently racist". That sort of thing.

[Rvaughn]

I'd say that mainly the Traditionalist prefer it. Many "non-Traditionalists" point out that Calvinism has a long standing "tradition" in the SBC and was once (maybe not in its strictest form) the majority position. Here's a read from one traditionalist about the term.

[Dave Roberts]

[Sandy]

The "lessening of denominational loyalty" that Dave mentions is visible in convention attendance. The core group that attends conventions and makes denominational decisions is down to a tenth of what it was at the peak of the controversy. Registration runs under 6,000. I don't really see a lot of interest anymore in the names on the who's who list at Ninth and Commerce in Nashville. I've worked with several of the local pastors up here, and their primary interest in the SBC is its mission support. The focus of most of the churches here is evangelism and ministry to build churches. I doubt they'd be interested in a denominational fight over doctrine. David Platt and Russell Moore would be the two denominational leaders who have the most name recognition and admiration among the SBC leaders in Pennsylvania, both Calvinists, and Mark Dever is also well known and highly respected because of his Nine Marks group and emphasis on revitalizing churches, and because he'll come here for conferences and consults and doesn't charge an arm and leg to do it.

I also see that there isn't really much of an effort to keep Calvinists out. You've got Platt and Moore, who are probably the most liked, most popular denominational leaders especially among younger pastors. And the Calvinists don't seem to be knocking the door down, demanding to be included. Dever, for example, has his own ministry group that serves the needs of a lot of SBC churches, and crosses outside denominational lines. They network with like-minded people, and meet needs that the denomination doesn't, so there's really not a need to abandon support for missions. And I really don't think the Calvinists are interested in running the SBC.

[JE Pettibone]