More on Moore

[Sandy]

https://world.wng.org/2016/12/supporter ... _criticism

Haven't heard the latest, though I hear that Moore, while not taking anything back about Trump, is getting shrill and hard line on some specific issues, perhaps as a means of distracting criticism or re-establishing his conservative credentials. If Moore gets pushed out, it will split the SBC, not down the middle, but it will lose most of what remains of its younger, more progressive wing, those who have abandoned sacred cows for the sake of evangelism and church growth, and the vast majority of its growing segment of ethnic congregations. I'm not sure that Moore will get pushed out, though.

Actually Dave Miller, who blogs frequently on SBC Voices, has a pretty good handle on this.

http://sbcvoices.com/a-russell-moore-re ... calm-down/

[William Thornton]

I don't claim any special insight or inside information on this squabble but think it's wise to view the matter through the lens of Calvinism. The militant anticalvinists in the SBC see an opening here to damage or dispatch a Calvinist and one close to Al Mohler. It's more about that than secular politics.

The anticals are loud but to date toothless in that they haven't demonstrated any real power. If a motion is made relative to this at the annual meeting we will see where it stands. I believe such a move would fail. The ERLC is overfunded (at $4mil annually) and I would favor a motion to step down their cooperative program allocation but not in this climate.

I agree that thee SBC's young Turks are at odds with the old lions on this. At some point the anticals may attempt a funding diversion. I don't see a lot of churches joining this.

[Sandy]

I've followed this on the blogs, but haven't seen much in the Baptist papers I read. To be honest, I'm really surprised that this Calvinist-Non (or anti) Calvinist battle has shaped up, formed boundaries, and developed as it has. In a denomination structured and operated like the SBC, something like that should be flying well under the radar screen.

I'd have thought the anti-Trump stance of both Moore and Mohler would have been much more significant, especially since the exit polling showed that upwards of 80% of "Evangelicals", which would include most Southern Baptists, were wholehearted supporters by the time the election rolled around, or maybe just Hillary Haters, though the apologists and defenses of Trump have been astoundingly shocking, coming from some quarters. There are many Calvinists in the school where I work, due to the high percentage of them among the Protestant community in Western Pennsylvania, including Reformed Presbyterians, Evangelical Presbyterians, Orthodox Presbyterians and PCA, and a scattering of GARBC churches and independent Baptists that are more like them than the "IFB" churches down south that align with Tennessee Temple or the Jack Hyles flag wavers. The Reformed and Orthodox Presbies do not register or vote, and their kids will stand respectfully, but will not salute or pledge the American flag, much less talk politics. Their presence makes for lively discussions in Bible classes, especially since the other half of the school comes from much more progressive, non-denominational churches, or Charismatics, most of whom are non-Calvinist, or up-front Arminian, but I have a hard time seeing why there is such a sharp divide in a loosely confederated denomination like the SBC. They are cooperative, and I never hear any insistence that our teachers or staff believe it their way in order to earn their respect and cooperation.

[William Thornton]

There is a considerable anti-calvinist component, a rather militant one, in the SBC. You can view most all conflict through that one lens.

I'd view the Trump vote as anti-Hil.

[Sandy]

How do Calvinists line up on the trustee boards? Southern would obviously need to have a majority of them, perhaps the ERLC does as well? And there's David Platt, at the IMB, who is Calvinist, supports women's ordination and speaking in tongues. Interesting developments in the SBC. Who's next up for SBC Prez? That's the key to the trustee boards.

[Stephen Fox]

You can laugh if you want but check Yellowhammer News. Bama is Trumps America and Rick and Bubba are the new fulcrum in Babdist life in the South. Faith Freedom and Firearms is their mantra. They have the inside of the Trump White House at their disposal through Bannon's right hand man Cliff Sims brought up from Yellowhammer, champion of all things Rick and Bubba Radio, and they shamelessly play the alt right demagogue radio game in Jeesus name and Rick Lance and the Bama Babdists don't have a clue what to do with them.

They are the new face of Pressler, Helms and Albert Lee Smith and they came to play like the true believers in Adrian Rogers that they are.

See my blog for more background on this insidious Baptist network in Bama

And Oh, Burgess had a famous dust up with Russ Moore on radio over Mitt Romney last fall. He's earned his street cred.

[William Thornton]

[Sandy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRTp_JS_5sU

Platt, on speaking in tongues. Not a Pentecostal or Charismatic by any stretch of the imagination, but not a cessationist, either, which would be contrary to most Southern Baptists on the subject. That's not particularly a Calvinist perspective, though he is characterized in several biographical references to his books as one of the SBC's "young Calvinist leaders." If you've read Radical, you could make an argument for that. Apparently there's enough evidence for his wikipedia sketch to characterize his theology as reformed and Calvinist, and to detect Reformed Theology as one of his interests.

I've learned, through a long period of involvement with Southern Baptists at most of the levels of denominational organization, that theological positions and perspectives don't really matter as much as connections and relationships do when it comes to winding up on a trustee board, or in a particular job. As a college freshman at an SBC-related college we had to take a class called "Church Growth and Development." It was taught by the exec director of the state Baptist convention, and as a denominational man to the core, one of the things he emphasized to the students was the importance of "hitching your wagon" to the right people "if you want to get anywhere in this denomination." That wasn't the last time I heard that. Theological views and positions are mainly means of eliminating personalities. If someone is being pushed by a kingmaker, their theology isn't going to matter much.

[William Thornton]

Lots of SBCers aren't cessationists. Nothing big there. Haven't heard him on women's ordination. Not arguing that he isn't a Cal. The rabid anti-cals certainly think he is.

[Rvaughn]

This post is representative of the anger toward Moore. I don't know how widespread it is. It may be like a puffed-up furry cat -- a lot more show than substance.

[William Thornton]

[Rvaughn]

[Sandy]

[Rvaughn]

[Sandy]

https://www.onenewsnow.com/perspectives ... bout-trump

This is a pretty interesting perspective on Moore's tenure at the ERLC. The author contends that Moore started angering political conservatives several years back, not just with his trashing of the orange haired buffoon.

Moore has angered conservatives because of the following list of reasons:
1. He's caricatured and discredited conservatives and the Religious Right.
2. He's chastised conservatives for embracing politics at the expense of the gospel, as he's regularly commented on and engaged in (largely liberal) politics.
3. He's said he would attend a same-sex wedding reception, has dialogued with homosexual activists (while marginalizing a conservative ministry that reaches out to those struggling with homosexuality) and baselessly repudiated a straw-man caricature of reparative therapy
4. Only certain political candidates at Christian campuses drew his public opposition, while certain Southern Baptist GOP candidates were left off the invite list of the ERLC presidential candidates forum.
5. Throughout the 2016 campaign, Moore not only routinely criticized Donald Trump, but also appeared to delight in the provocation.
6. While regularly criticizing Donald Trump, Moore had little to say about Hillary Clinton, although he did note that he once wanted to marry a woman just like her.
7. Under Moore's leadership, the ERLC jumped on board legally to help the Obama Administration bully a New Jersey township into allowing a mosque to be built, despite the township planners' concerns about a lack of details on issues like parking and buffer zones bordering the site's residential neighborhoods.
8. Despite the fact that the SBC has strongly supported the nation of Israel, Moore and the ERLC have yet to issue any statement opposing the barbaric, anti-Israel UNSC Resolution 2334.'

These are headings from a commentary by Janet Mefferd, a commentator for American Family Radio, which already makes her facts subject to question and suspect. She makes several assertions about things that have already been proven to be false, including about Muslim immigration.

If Moore has done all this, and I'm sure the perspective is quite slanted in this opinion piece, then Southern Baptists really do need him, and he has returned some measure of credibility to a denomination which, frankly, is not really taken seriously.

[Rvaughn]

[JE Pettibone]

[Sandy]

[Rvaughn]

[Sandy]

[Rvaughn]

Sandy, I'm not in the SBC and not an apologist for it, just think you're overthinking how little influence they have.

Nevertheless, while I think they probably have more influence than you think they have, I think the leadership have much less influence on their rank & file than they think they have. Years ago when we voted on the lottery here in Texas, I thought it would never pass -- too many Baptist in Texas, and if the majority of voting Southern Baptists voted against it surely it wouldn't pass. It passed.

[Haruo]

[Haruo]

[JE Pettibone]

Ed: Sandy RE; your post of 5:i5 on the 17th High Profile and Influential are not of necessity synonymous. True Mohler and Moore have a strong following among young Baptist Rabid Calvinist, however the vast majority of of Southern Baptist are not young, nor are even more, Rabid Calvinist, many who profess to be Calvinist and understand the argument prefer to be known as Modified Calvinist, dropping one or more petals of the TULIP.

[Sandy]

http://www.bpnews.net/48493/page-and-mo ... ne-another