End of White Christian America

[Dave Roberts]

I spent a fascinating hour this afternoon in one of George Bullard's Thursday conference calls with Robert P. Jones, author of the book The End of White Christian America. For those of us working with churches, especially declining ones of those wondering why churches do not have the influence in society we once had, Jones' book is a wake-up call to the cultural world in which our churches minister. I encourage you to get the book. It is indeed a challenging read, and reaches across the religious spectrum. Jones is the CEO of the Public Religion Research Institute, and his work is based on studies of the sociological changes in our society that can be statistically measured and can be carefully interpreted in the context of our society.

[Tim Bonney]

I've not read the book. But, "White Christian America" brought us Donald Trump. I'll be thankful when white Christians no longer have enough power to decide who is president. We've screwed up this one badly.

[Dave Roberts]

I think this book has lots of implications for the future also of predominantly white churches. Most SBC and CBF churches I visit have very limited, if any, participation from African-Americans or other racial groups. The local Catholic church has the most Hispanics, but the demographics do not bode well for the traditional white churches, North or South.

[William Thornton]

Most SBC churches I'm in are predominantly white but many have a considerable black and hispanic minority. Thousands of ethnic churches are SBC, though many black churches have dual affiliation. I'm guessing that the SBC is far more diverse than the CBF or ABC, not just in numbers but proportions. NAMB church planting is maybe 1/4 ethnic.

The simple solution to stopping the white decline is for white folks to have more babies. White deaths exceed births in about one third of states.

[Dave Roberts]

[William Thornton]

[Jim]

There’s been this fanatical preoccupation since the wondrous entitlement/civil rights legislation of the 1960s to integrate the churches, even to the point of passing silly resolutions of “apology” for slavery in many denominations/churches, even though no white churchgoers of the last 150 or so years had anything to do with the injustice. All efforts have essentially failed, not least because of the deep differences in the cultures of both the people and the institutions. The self-administered guilt-trips over this failure is abundantly obvious in this forum and represent a similar silliness as well as a profound misunderstanding of the black folks in general. They’re happy to be just as they are and the top black Baptist honchos laughed an SBC resolution/apology to scorn in 1995. There’s nothing magical or even spiritual in an orchestrated attempt to achieve some sort of politically correct togetherness when no such desire for same is present collectively in either ethnic group. Tangible cooperation is always good, i.e., taking care of the needy (money, in other words) but as far as the melding of the groups is concerned, forget it. Neither group is interested in that, though representatives in each group seldom if ever admit it, especially in this forum. For the super-righteous who demand some sort of artificial accord, just forget it. The blacks are happy just where and wherein they are. Why afflict them with those horrible evangelicals or modern liberals?

[Dave Roberts]

[Jim]

What I wrote had to do with the disparate culture-differences vis-a-vis blacks and whites as especially applied to religious matters and had nothing to do with demographics. Those differences apply across the board and not to particular groups (castes). Blacks conduct their affairs in their own way just as do the whites. When whites insist that there simply must be “togetherness” in order to erase racism (pertaining only to whites, of course) and evidence love for all mankind, they often mean, especially since the 60s, that the poor mistreated theologically disadvantaged blacks simply must be brought up to speed spiritually, ergo, entice them into white churches for the cleansing. Most whites are not that interested in attending black churches wherein worship services might last past noon. This, of course, is unsaid and passes under the rubric of “Jesus loves the little children, red and yellow black and white.” The elitist example is super-seminarian Bill Leonard, who lets it be well-known that he worships in a predominantly black church, as if that proves anything. Or, Tony Campolo lets it be known universally that he threw a birthday party for hard-working prostitutes at 3:00 a.m. in an all-nite diner. Oil and water do not mix. Generally, the same is true for black and white cultures. The white superciliousness is obvious and disgusting.

[Dave Roberts]

[Haruo]

Most of the "black" churches hereabouts are in fact multiracial, just predominantly black and with black pastors. And in our Evergreen Baptist region of ABCUSA, the same is generally true of the Black Caucus churches, and sometimes of other-caucus churches. Most white churches in EBA have some black and some other-race members. There are black members, white members (often but not always with Asian spouses), and non-Japanese Asian members at Japanese Baptist where Mrs. H. is a member and I am a frequent attender.

Jim's assurance that "Blacks like to be just the way they are and be left alone" is not a true statement in my surroundings, and I truly doubt it is in his, either. If it's his perception and he's wrong (as I suspect), it's just pathetic.

There certainly are blacks who want to keep to themselves. But I have never found, whether by inquiry or observation or attempted interaction, such to be in the majority. And I find it to be less the case in the churches than in high-school cliques and gangs. And even there, FWIW, our neighborhood has a racially integrated motorcycle club that has brought occasional gunfights into the area.

[Jim]

The two posts above prove my point perfectly. In each, the interaction is spontaneous and carried out through choice. The alternative I call “using the herd instinct,” that is, attempting to orchestrate instruments that cannot harmonize. I cringe when I see the notices for these “joint services” along with exchanged pulpits, etc. To attempt this artificial mixing is to denigrate both cultures, the message being that individual thought and action are inferior to the necessity to round up the gang and head it in the right direction…a la home on the range.

[Haruo]

Pulpit exchanges can be a lot of fun for all concerned, and I have never been to such a service where I saw anything I could even at a stretch regard as denigration of culture. When JBC has a joint service, the languages are mixed and matched. UN-style headphones for the sermon.

[Dave Roberts]

[Jim]

I'm not much interested in having fun at church services. The church in Fayetteville is made up of people choosing to attend there, not as the result of trying to affect some sort of racial problem, real or imagined. This has nothing to do with the artificial effort to promote some sort of political or theological correctness. Obviously, we're on different planets.

[Sandy]

[JE Pettibone]

Ed: I haven't had access to wifi for a few days as we are having a few things done to our RV, yearly generator maintenance, check out of the water heater on both propane and electric, same for the fridge, also going to have a bit of cosmetic work done on the exterior. Had the combination washer dryer taken out to give us some added closet space. Since Tuesday we have been staying in the coach at the repair facility close to the Citrus Tower in Central Fla about 11 Miles north of our new lot. Got Fl Plates for both the coach and the toad, as well as new drivers licenses for each of us. And consulting with a couple landscapers.


I am not going to jump into this "conversation" until I have a permanent wifi hook up, except to say you guys seem to be doing a lot of talking past one another, with no one demonstrating a lot of understanding of the subject.

I am of the opinion this discussion needs at least 2 minority group members to give it some balance.

I will ask for prayers that the cold spell we are experiencing tonight and tomorrow night doesn't develop into a hard freeze. Right now the orange trees are heavy with a potentially great crop, which could be a Godsend for the migrant workers.

[Sandy]

[Haruo]

Agreed, Sandy. This morning at Japanese Baptist there were at least four blacks in attendance, one in the praise team, and two from Liberia, one of them just arrived (if she'd come from the opposite coast she'd be in detention at the airport, thank you Mr. President). There are three Chinese (at least), all in significant roles (the choir director, the soloist, and the church secretary). There are bunches of white people. But it is Japanese Baptist, and after the service we had a sumptuous repast in honor of Lunar New Year, complete with fresh-pounded mochi (see , which I participated in).

[Dave Roberts]

[Sandy]

[JE Pettibone]

Ed: Sandy the last line of you reply to Jim is both Crude and rude based on your own biased opinion.

If you come to Florida you will find you will find hundreds of "Ethnic" churches comprised of different people groups who use CHURCH as a part of maintain contact with their own heritage.

[Haruo]

Yeah, although Jim's comments on matters of race and ethnicity are often irritating (and I think intentionally so), I've seen nothing to suggest he supports the KKK, in church or out.

[Chris]

[William Thornton]