OK, Stephen, comment needed on this

[William Thornton]

http://sbcvoices.com/a-fresh-take-on-re ... ent-339234

Here's your big chance. Go to SBCV and don't let me down on this.

[Haruo]

Interesting article. I posted a link on FB with a tag for Stephen.

[William Thornton]

Thanks. This is in Stephen's wheelhouse.

[Jim]

The Tozer quote relating to God’s conquering of man before he can bless or do anything with man seems strange, especially in light of the scriptural mentions of God (or at least Christ) dying to set man free. God conquered Jezebel by letting the dogs eat her carcass—death, in other words. The same was true with Ananias and Sapphira. All three were conquered but not blessed or used. Perhaps heretically speaking, precisely because God couldn’t or wouldn’t conquer man (of his own volition), He gave up and redeemed man through the work of Christ. God doesn’t make a servant of man; rather, man becomes a servant to God upon his own volition. God’s way is persuasion, as found out by Moses and Paul, although blindness could admittedly come close to conquering, that alternative being overwhelmingly unattractive.

[Stephen Fox]

[Stephen Fox]

[Stephen Fox]

Neil Young has their number in this piece Alan Bean spotlighted last week. Also shows a little ugly history of Christianity Today and the sophomoric rationale of Richard Mouw.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivis ... -dead-end/

Slactivist is a proper framing of the takeover and its reverberations to Trump and Moore and the New Yorker piece on SBC. Compared to Bean and Young, Moore and Dave Miller are lightweights for certain.

[Sandy]

That's a great link, Stephen. It doesn't really connect to the conservative resurgence, but you probably can connect the culture that has infected both Southern Baptists and other Evangelicals when it comes to the gigantic disconnect they've made between Biblical values and their political affiliation.

Many of Russell Moore's critics in the SBC are talking like the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission that he directs actually had some kind of influence in Washington under Land's leadership, because he sucked up to Bush. Of course, now most Southern Baptists and Evangelicals are Bush-haters, because his integrity wouldn't allow him to abandon his values and support Trump. I've got news for them. In spite of the defunding of the Baptist Joint Committee by the SBC, and the establishment of the ERLC, it doesn't take much research to find that the BJC has done more, and wielded more influence, than the ERLC under Land. The ERLC more or less just tagged along. It wasn't innovative or engaging until Moore came along.

I've linked another article that I think sheds some light on what Richard Mouw was saying. He was pointing to indications, largely among younger Evangelicals, of the kind of advancement into a more progressive social culture than has previously been the case. What he's seeing is what is happening among members of the millennial generation in Evangelical churches. He was optimistic, but what he isn't observing is that most millennials are leaving Evangelical churches, only 5% of them are now even engaged at all, and if you look at the article I'm linking, you'll see that their frustration is partly due to their feeling that the church is not progressive enough, and that all of its efforts at "evangelism" are not producing the expected results when it comes to things like injustice, racism and social change. In fact, millennials see that the emphasis on conversion and life transformation that is at the core of Evangelical theology is not really producing the life transformation.

http://www.recklesslyalive.com/12-reaso ... er-church/

[Stephen Fox]

[Sandy]

[Haruo]

Where does Mohler stand in all this? I remember reading an anti-Trump statement from him earlier in the year but don't know what his stance was after Trump became the nominee.

[Sandy]

This was October, mid-month, about two weeks before the election.

http://news.sbts.edu/2016/10/12/evangel ... n-tonight/

This was November 9, following the election.

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/a ... 100217.htm

Not exactly a "walk-back" but a piece with a stronger condemnation of Hillary Clinton. Well, he still works for the denomination, and his radio program heavily depends on Southern Baptists tuning in. This is more of an explanation of why Evangelicals did what he said they shouldn't do, and abandoned their values in order to vote for Trump. Except, of course, their opposition to abortion. Some of his "facts" are not quite straight. I think the actual figure cited for Evangelical support for Trump was somewhere around 75%, not 86%, and that was for "White Evangelicals" not including African Americans or HIspanics. And of course, on November 9, perhaps he didn't realize that Clinton would eventually wind up with three million more votes than Trump, and that the electoral loss came down to 50,000 voters in five counties in three states, not exactly a "repudiation." So if you asked whether my opinion is that he's trying to appease angry, intolerant Southern Baptists who demand lock-step agreement with everything they think from denominational employees, I'd say yes, that's exactly what he's trying to do.

Moore could become a genuinely prophetic voice by continuing to stand on principle and be the contrast to the inherent backwardness of Southern Baptists trying to turn their leaders into puppets that say what they want them to. He's sharp enough to figure out how to carve out a niche that comes with financial support from like-minded individuals who are long past wanting to see deeds matched with words. If he looks past the narrow bubble of "Southern Baptist life" into the broader Evangelical Christian community, he'll find plenty of allies, and plenty of support, especially if they are willing to embrace African American and Latino brethren, and allow them to lead and set the agenda.

Mohler could be a prophetic voice as well, but I think he's too entrenched in the SBC bureaucracy, and too dependent on the way it operates to speak freely, truthfully and prophetically.

[Haruo]

Well, if push comes to shove and Homeland Security asks any of you what mosque I attend, you can tell them the Oromo Cultural Center mosque in Rainier Bveach. Not that Ethiopia would be my first choice for a place to be deported to...

[Stephen Fox]

Nowhere have I seen Russ Moore admit the point Wuthnow makes about the origins of the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention in the margins, the penumbra of the John Birch Society. That is a strong point evident to the BX6400 shelf Sandy refuses to concede.

So Russ Moore remains in my book an impostor, a glass half full who is nobody without Paul Pressler and Al Mohler.

Russ Moore was silent for all practical purposes about the race card that became the abortion card perfected in Karl Rove's religion card that gave us Trump until there was Trump and Moore said Oops.

So all Sandy's Hagiography while interesting doesn't refute Wuthnow and Ellen Rosenberg, Dan Williams and Bill Moyers, even myself.

[Sandy]

Sorry, Stephen, but I think you're a little behind the times. We're more than a generation away from the alleged takeover aka conservative resurgence. The whole foundation of Evangelical involvement in the GOP has shifted. It used to be about projecting and imposing their values on candidates, and rejecting those (mostly Democrats) they judged not to have the moral character necessary to serve. Now it's about supporting a candidate whose moral character would have received a scathing rebuke from Evangelicals if he'd run as a D instead of an R. The bottom line is that most Evangelical leaders are taking a political position to protect their assets.

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/03/04/r ... onert.html

Then whats to say they can work themselves out of the fundamentalist takeover of the SBC without Russ Moore being honest about the history that gave him a platform in the first place