Phyliss Schlafly key ally in Fundy SBC Takeover, is Dead

[Stephen Fox]

With a nailer of a quote from my friend Randall Balmer.

More back story with reference to Atlanta SBC of 86 later

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/15/opini ... eft-region

[Sandy]

As this thread is turning into another carnival

Well, it's hard for it not to be when you put in a headline like "Tom Edsall affirms Stephen Fox History" and the article you cite has nothing to do with the thread.

From my perspective, I think we've pretty well confirmed that Phyllis Schlafly had nothing to do with the conservative resurgence in the SBC, and was far more interested in her own agenda than she was in who was in charge of the SBC. I think we've also put Timothy's mind at ease that there isn't much possibility that the Methodists were directly involved in the alleged "takeover" either, though some of those connections get mighty close to real evidence. I'm suspicious now, though. Not one, but two, count 'em, two Billy Graham Crusades.

I'm done here, so the thread can now be left open for more of Stephen's hit and run unrelated posts.

[William Thornton]

Stephen Fox is rumored to be a rogue AI bot who wanders among blogs gathering and expunging random names based on an unknown algorithm that grew out of a weird combination of real and pseudo-religiopolitical characters.

[Stephen Fox]

but I am going with Tim Bonney the Methodist boom quote for my blog when hopefully this afternoon I register this bl.com moment for the ages. Good try but Bonney Tim's "Boom" quote has the most punch, just a better line.

I will link this thread for the 3,027 people who clicked on my blog in June and others that may want to take a peak.

I like you fellows, but it troubles me that in the face of all the evidence--and I have done the bibliography before--you remain so stubborn in denial of the Pressler Helms and Yes Schafly network that colluded and were the driving force in the Takeover.

Hope you all read Balmer's Quote. It is definitive.

Look for Hillary Clinton to possibly make reference to Helms as the father of Deplorable Trumpism spotlighting NC as poster child of where the underbelly of the SBC Takeover has strongest legacy.

Hope yall listen to online chat at drshow.org today about New Af Am Museum in DC. It was Jesse Helms of the Pressler takeover who was the strongest and last naysayer to fall trying to stop the Museum. You boys be proud and own your ignorance and blindness.

Otherwise, God Bless you.

[Tim Bonney]

Well Stephen, even if we disagree about a connection between Schlafly and Pressler, as she is now dead she shouldn't trouble us any more. Nor can she connect up with Helms except maybe in heaven or maybe in a much more southerly region of the universe if she isn't going to heaven.

[Stephen Fox]

Whether or not Bonney, Sandy and Thornton deserved the platform of my notorious blog.

It's out of my hands now.

For better or worse, fellows, you are part of a new plane for posterity

http://foxofbama.blogspot.com/2016/09/r ... n-and.html

[Sandy]

Well, I wasn't going to comment, but after leaving a note on his blog, and getting a "would like to respond but gotta go" reply, I decided to go ahead and post here.

I didn't have to cite Randal Balmer, or Molly Worthen, as sources to point out the fact that the lifelong Catholic, Phyllis Schlafly, was never involved in, nor cared about, the conservative resurgence in the Southern Baptist Convention. She spent most of her time focused on the work of Eagle Forum, which she developed to promote her women's agenda. She would have welcomed support from the conservative SBC leaders, but wouldn't have wasted her time or resources on a battle for control of a denomination to which she didn't belong.

Jesse Helms was indeed a Southern Baptist, and he was a cantankerous, loud, and often obnoxious member of the Senate. He was a rabid, extremist right winger who was often portrayed as a bigot and a hypocrite when it came to his Christian faith, because he didn't seem to hide genuine hatred for those with whom he disagreed, or with those he didn't like. But other than sharing an extremist right wing political ideology with some of the SBC's conservative leaders, that's about it. A lot of Southern Baptists, whether they are calvinist or non-calvinist, moderate, liberal, conservative or fundamentalist in their theology, are political conservatives. A lot of Southern Baptists in North Carolina are moderates, with the state convention there having about a third of all the churches affiliated with CBF. Helms attended and taught Sunday School in the Hayes-Barton Baptist Church, affiliated with CBF, and was a graduate of Wingate College and Wake Forest, both on the "A" list of moderate Baptist supported institutions. I can find no evidence that he ever served as a messenger to the SBC, though if he'd come from Hayes Barton, he'd have likely been opposed to conservative resurgence leadership.

If I had any further interest in reading yet another book about the conservative resurgence/alleged "takeover" of the SBC, it wouldn't come from an outside source like Randall Balmer or Molly Worthen. It would come from someone who was there, and was a Southern Baptist, which makes them instantly more credible than a non-SBC sociologist observation from well outside the ring.

[Stephen Fox]

HORSEPOOP:

Randall Balmer

James Dunn who spent ten years and more fighting Helms and his minions including Eagle Forum's Albert Lee Smith and the Helms attempts to control the Baptist Joint Committee as part of the Council for National Policy vendetta against Dunn and Jimmy Allen and their support of Jimmy Carter, which that Bircher network could not stand.

Molly Worthen

Joe Ferguson, in fact has a chapter on Helms and the SBC In Hard Right

Ellen Rosenberg

Bill Moyers

Robert Wuthnow

Furman religion Department past and present particularly Helen Lee Turner who knew Helms operative Sam Currin.

Tom Edsall as he did last weekend in NY Times

Charles Marsh and his Father Robert

Randall Lolley and Bill Self

Cecil Sherman and UNC Chancellor Bill Friday which I often reference on my blog

And the oft mentioned BX 6400's if there are any other questions left unanswered

[Sandy]

I don't see any answers to any questions in your post above. What I see is the word "Horsepoop" followed by a colon. Punctuation rules being what they are, a word followed by a colon is an indication that everything which follows is what that word indicates.

Perhaps your post should be preserved somewhere, so here it is, Stephen calling his list of name drops, irrelevant commentators and stale, outdated references "Horsepoop." I couldn't have said it better myself.

HORSEPOOP:

Randall Balmer

James Dunn who spent ten years and more fighting Helms and his minions including Eagle Forum's Albert Lee Smith and the Helms attempts to control the Baptist Joint Committee as part of the Council for National Policy vendetta against Dunn and Jimmy Allen and their support of Jimmy Carter, which that Bircher network could not stand.

Molly Worthen

Joe Ferguson, in fact has a chapter on Helms and the SBC In Hard Right

Ellen Rosenberg

Bill Moyers

Robert Wuthnow

Furman religion Department past and present particularly Helen Lee Turner who knew Helms operative Sam Currin.

Tom Edsall as he did last weekend in NY Times

Charles Marsh and his Father Robert

Randall Lolley and Bill Self

Cecil Sherman and UNC Chancellor Bill Friday which I often reference on my blog

And the oft mentioned BX 6400's if there are any other questions left unanswered

Re: Phyliss Schlafly key ally in Fundy SBC Takeover, is Dead

Personally, I wouldn't refer to Cecil Sherman, Randall Lolley, Charles Marsh or Bill Moyers as purveyors of "horsepoop," but to use their words as corroboration in this irrelevant argument certainly is.

History has already decided, the SBC conservative resurgence was more than three decades ago, everyone has moved on, nothing will ever return to where it was, and there is a whole new set of issues and problems which the SBC, and the sparse and scattered splinters that came out of it, are now dealing with.

[Tim Bonney]

History has already decided, the SBC conservative resurgence was more than three decades ago, everyone has moved on, nothing will ever return to where it was, and there is a whole new set of issues and problems which the SBC, and the sparse and scattered splinters that came out of it, are now dealing with.

It is hard to know when to move on Sandy. It is probably easier now for me not being a Baptist any longer. I sympathize with Fox having a hard time getting past it since he is still in the Bible belt living with the aftereffects.

[Sandy]

History has already decided, the SBC conservative resurgence was more than three decades ago, everyone has moved on, nothing will ever return to where it was, and there is a whole new set of issues and problems which the SBC, and the sparse and scattered splinters that came out of it, are now dealing with.

It is hard to know when to move on Sandy. It is probably easier now for me not being a Baptist any longer. I sympathize with Fox having a hard time getting past it since he is still in the Bible belt living with the aftereffects.

Maybe I should be more sympathetic, though in many ways, he's moved on himself, evidenced by the circles in which he hangs his intellectual hat. I bought, and read Molly Worthen's Apostles of Reason,out of curiosity to see whether or not she might be on to something when it comes to analyzing the foundational and theological currents of the SBC. If I were teaching a class on the college level that looked into Conservative Evangelical churches and denominations and studied what makes them tick, her book wouldn't be the text, but would be an outside reading assignment. But you have to lift out specific points, and separate them from the context of the whole book to make the points Stephen makes. I can see the way he weaves them into his argument, though I think Worthen herself would wonder about how those conclusions were drawn. I'm not sure of her background prior to earning degrees at Yale, and becoming an assistant professor of Global Christianity at a secular, state university, but she writes from the perspective of an observer of Evangelical Christianity, and not as if she had ever been a participant in it. Her references to Southern Baptists are based on an analysis of the post-resurgence denomination as corroboration of her thesis, not an attempt to investigate or expose the motives and secret conspiracies of its leaders.

Collinsville might seem to be in the hinterland of "Babdiss" conservatism, but he's not that far from Huntsville, which offers a couple of churches that he might find comfortable, and in which he could use his spiritual and intellectual gifts.

[Tim Bonney]

And does it make any difference any longer to argue about why the Takeover/Resurgence happened? As you've said Sandy, it is history now. The SBC is what it is now, not what it was 30 or 40 years ago. I've pretty much decided not to argue about it any more.

[Sandy]

And does it make any difference any longer to argue about why the Takeover/Resurgence happened? As you've said Sandy, it is history now. The SBC is what it is now, not what it was 30 or 40 years ago. I've pretty much decided not to argue about it any more.

Does it make a difference? Probably not. But every now and then, one of these assertions, such as Schlafly being an "ally" in the resurgence, emerges. Then it merits discussion up to a point.

I wouldn't have ever picked up Worthen's book in a bookstore. I got it strictly because it appeared in Stephen's discussion, and was curious about her thesis, and why she, in her position and from her background, would even be remotely interested in the dynamics of the conservative resurgence in the SBC, and she's not particularly or specifically interested. But she identifies and analyzes factors which lead to conclusions about the broader movement of Evangelicalism, including the SBC. You'd enjoy reading it, and I think you would find it useful as a Methodist pastor.

In a genuinely honest discussion, most of the motivation behind how people think, what they did, and where they wound up with regard to the SBC was largely based on their own perspective, and was probably selfish in that regard. I'm employed by an institution owned by the Christian and Missionary Alliance, and my church membership reflects that choice, not the other way around. My position is my main ministry outlet, and we are in a very nice, small, local CMA church, but if it weren't for my employment, I wouldn't have made that choice. I can see where denominational loyalty runs strong, and change which comes along and threatens that, would be a problem. Most churches in this country now are facing deeper and more difficult challenges than the level of denominational loyalty for that to continue to be something that produces divisiveness and works against unity in Christ.

[Tim Bonney]

In a genuinely honest discussion, most of the motivation behind how people think, what they did, and where they wound up with regard to the SBC was largely based on their own perspective, and was probably selfish in that regard.

Well certainly self interest was involved, in that my own home church was effected by all that happened in the SBC along with friends and colleagues. Certainly now that I have "no dog in this fight" it matters a lot less than it did. Also those friends have all moved on as well, either to congregations in the Baptist family that fit who they are, other Baptist denominations that they felt comfortable in, or like myself, eventually out of the Baptist family.

Not my circus, not my monkeys.

[Stephen Fox]

I am working on part Two of a Blog I have posted on the facebook wall, link, at Furman's facebook wall. For all the reasons I post in that blog the fundy takeover of the SBC still matters and has significant reverberations.

Sandy is simply wrong, out to lunch, willfully ignorant about the many ways Phyliss Schlafly underpinned, collaborated with Pressler and Helms network to the backward politics of the fundy leadership that were central to Pressler and his inner circle SBC Takeover designs.

I am glad Bonney is at peace. I too think he will find Worthen a worthwhile read and will see how Francis Schaeffer helped underwrite a mindset that abetted Helms and Pressler politics in the takeover. Randall Balmer of Dartmouth has said as much and Wuthnow hinted for all but the most feeble minded.

I do wish Dr. Bruce Gourley would engage here and help settle the dust for Sandy one more time.

[Stephen Fox]

I doubt Lee Saunders ever will admit defeat in this conversation about the interweaving of Schlafly to the fundamentalist takeover, but here is stark as it gets.

After posting this about three weeks ago, I reread in the last few days Dan Williams book of about ten years ago. Had forgotten his sterling sequence in one chapter where he devotes about five pages each to the following in this order: Francis Schaeffer 2. Phyliss Schafly and 3. The fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention.

Sandy is welcome to read at his convenience. And I am in all deliberate speed bringing this to the attention of the Anatomy of a Schism Campbell Reed SBWIM folks to see if they evaluate all this like I have and Williams with a fair minded reading.

The Schaeffer segment is nuanced. Sandy will like that; but I think Roger Olsen review of Worthen shuts the coffin on him as a "charlatan."

[Sandy]

I'm betting that the book you mention doesn't make the claim, or provide any evidence that either Schaeffer or Schlafly did anything specific to facilitate the conservative resurgence in the SBC. Allies in either the conservative, Evangelical movement, or on specific social issues of interest to right wing causes, yes. But putting forth effort or influence to determine who would be in charge of the SBC, no. That they both influenced many Southern Baptists, including leaders, with their perspectives on Reconstructionism, and on the anti-ERA movement, but they were not active allies in any attempt to change the leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention. Citing a book that happens to mention all three is not evidence. In order to be allies, you'd have to point to specific places, times and remarks that were made which create a link to anyone in the convention they knew for the express purpose of bringing influence to bear on behalf of any of the individuals who ran for SBC president after 1979. When you do that, then I'll "admit defeat." Not a hit and run, or a name drop in a reference, or the fact that some author might have given random mention to the two of them, and the resurgence leadership in the pages of the same book, but actual evidence of a conversation, or letter, or something tangible which proves that they did something to become involved.

[Stephen Fox]

Would love for him to jump in on this

Randall Balmer and the list above including the membership of the Council for National Policy is tangible enough for me and the overwhelming majority of the BX 6400's

[Stephen Fox]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/30/opin ... &smtyp=cur

[Stephen Fox]

in a New history of America. See the Q and A in Newsweek

[Stephen Fox]

In her magnificent new history These Truths, Jill devotes the chapter Battle Lines to Schlafly.

Read it as close as your nearest Barnes and Noble