Honeycutt's holy war

[William Thornton]

ABP has an interesting piece on Roy Honeycutt's declaration of holy war on SBC cons 30 years ago. The piece is an article by Bob Allen on MWBTS seminary prez Jason Allen's essay.



You can read the article and judge young Allen's historical view of Honeycutt's sermon. Allen was eight in 1984.

My view is that Honeycutt made a serious strategic mistake that hurt the mod cause. The declaration of "holy war" on fellow Southern Baptists was used thereafter as the antidote to pressler's intemperate and martial 'going for the jugular.' Those who were aghast at the latter could never explain their side's use of the former.

I don't often reprise the SBC CR here but this is interesting. I wonder if any of our forum regulars were present for the sermon.

[Sandy]

The SBC meeting in Kansas City in 1984, was my third. I had just moved to St Louis. But I wasn't even aware of Honeycutt's sermon until a long time after he delivered it. I wasn't really keeping up with SBC politics in those days, I was 27, still single, and trying to get a career off the ground. I didn't think it affected me much.

[Dave Roberts]

I think Honeycutt came with "too little, too late." Rather than responding when things were still in flux, he allowed the Takeover Movement to set the agenda for several years and to frame the rhetoric so that any resistance came like a response to the question, "When did you stop beating your wife?" By the time Honeycutt responded, the battle was largely over. He meant well, but his rhetoric came far too late in the game to have an effect.
"

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

Sandy, I keep forgetting that 50.2% (one of the presidential election margins) was a vast majority .

By the way, I don't think you knew Cecil Sherman very well. He was one of the voices in the wilderness trying to wake up seminary presidents and agency heads when they did think it was nothing more than a tift. Several told Sherman that he should be quiet and that they knew how to deal with it. Honeycutt woke up far too late.

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

Sandy, it doesn't matter if you could prove (which I doubt) that the majority of Southern Baptists would have supported the takeover. Even if you can justify the reason for the takeover just cause does not equal just means.

You can join and enjoy the historical re-write that all winners are privledged to participate in after they win. Some day all of us who saw the tactics of the takeover will be dead. Then you can all pretend the takeover was a noble cause carried about by angelic leaders. Until then, don't expect us to read your posts about the noble CR and its majority rule without at least rolling our eyes even if we grow tired of correcting your statements.

[KeithE]

I was not a Baptist in 1984. I joined in 1986 after reading about the tiff in the book “Southern Baptist Holy War” (by Joe Barnhart in 1986) and convincing my wife not all Baptists were rule-based legalists. I hoped to become involved in the left split of the denomination I believed was coming soon.

In that book the term “Holy War” was attributed to Honeycutt in 1984 as William’s article says (pg 2) and WA Criswell responded with “For years we Southern Baptists played softball. Now it’s hardball time” (pg 3). Thus the war of words began but it was no doubt caused by pent up differences about Biblical Inerrancy which today remains the main line in the sand. Those that believe this was mainly about power are mistaken, imo.

More detailed discussion about biblical absurdities (that no one believes) and undeniable contradictions is the only possible way back to joint cooperation and respect. But I do not expect that to happen soon (or at least be successful) given the hard ball cons are playing.

The fact the the cons do not really believe in the plain sense of many biblical passages (e.g. “love your enemies”) is the ironic fact. Mods/libs are more likely to believe that command.

[William Thornton]

[KeithE]

[Lou]

[Tim Bonney]

[Neil Heath]

I suspect my church is not the only one still counted by the SBC and/or state convention because of a small amount of money we send.

We no longer include SBC or GBC in our budget at all, but we respect every member's right to give as they choose. A few of our older members still give to SBC, probably to support the missions work, and we send it in. As they pass away, that money will dry up and we will no longer be counted.

That generational shift is ongoing, and will need a decade or less to complete.

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Gee guys I have some more comments but must put them off to a latter time. I have to get ready to attend the first night of a three night REVIVAL being held at the OLD STONE Baptist Church pastored by our friend Howard Scheffey who is the black retired NYC Policeman with whom I appeared on a cover of Baptists Today a couple years ago. Old Stone is totally white except for Howard. Tonight Another friend Marie Schilling A former School principal , and former aid to Tony Campolo in his work with the disadvantaged through EAPE the Ministry that he founded in Phily and which had gone International prior to his retierment. Tomorrow Howard will be Preaching and Friday night it will be George Stepheoni who until recently was bi-vocational And is serving at Latham Community Baptist where Trudy was interim, her first pastoral experience, when we came to upstate NY.

[Sandy]

[Lou]

[Stephen Fox]

I think Dave Roberts has the high true ground in this banter. I would love to say more but I fear my friend William Thornton would edit it to death, take the sap out of it something akin to what Pressler and Adrian Rogers did to the SBC.

If the SBC was a question coming out of the 60s for certain the fundy takeover wasn't the answer.

I first saw Cecil Sherman in the flesh in 80 or 81 when he came over to the Wallace Memorial BC in Knoxville to delcare how serious a threat the Presslerites were. In relative terms I was on to it early!

[Stephen Fox]

[Tim Bonney]

It really does depend on what you call "miniscule."

There are over 300 ABC churches in Indiana. When over half of them are former SBC pastors there are 150+ people leaving the SBC just in one ABC region. without too much work I could come up with more than a dozen people I know personally who are former SBCers who left as a result of the takeover in one way or another to go to the ABC, DOC, UMC, PCUSA, and TEC as well. It is a fair bet that several hundred pastors left, and that is without me surveying people. It well could be many more since I just have personal information about a few hundred.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Sandy has added another verse to his CBF Sour grapes Ode. The refrain remains the same No one where I am has head of CBF because it is dying.

In one of his post above he says " there are quite a few CBF/SBC affiliated churches where the older generation contributors are CBF, and when they die out, so will that church's support of CBF."

To which I say sandy you might want to visit another General Assembly one of these days The young folk who where around Just behind Rick and yourself are actually moving into leadership and for the last decade the young leadership conference has had a very good crowd. As the old timers die off They are being replaced by those younger folk. And there are a significant number of us who have moved to ABC-USA churches and participate as individual members. Perhaps you had forgotten that CBF is made up of Churches and Individuals But as an individual my wife served a term a moderator of the BFNE the current vice moderator is also an ABC Pastor who happens to be on the National General Board of ABC We did have one of the of the older CBF Pastors die in the past 2 years.But we also have another who one who now pastors in the ABC. Coming into ABC causes no need to leave CBF.

[Lou]

[Stephen Fox]

The great Composer whose Magnificat is magnificent. That's where I found the word several years ago, in a New Yorker review. And it's a great one.

[Sandy]