Dennis Kim would be a good choice for SBC president

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

I'm fairly certain that the data given to me by the church planter in that area is accurate. Most of your questions aren't really relevant to the issue of planting a church. Church plants tend to reach people that established churches don't reach. In a city where several population surveys and data bases, including Lifeway's, and the Census Bureau, show consistently that 85-90% of the population doesn't have any kind of "religious background" or connection to any local church at all, as the figures for Pittsburgh in both of those surveys show, does it really matter who plants a church, or how many there are in the same neighborhood?

It's relatively easy, in most parts of Metro Pittsburgh, for a church plant to locate a nice building, since most Protestants of just about any kind, have disbanded and merged churches regularly, even in the 'burbs. It's an open field for church planters here. Other than a handful of mid-sized megas out in the burbs, no church plant under SBC support is encroaching on anyone else's turf. The only thing I've observed from ABC-USA is closures and mergers here.

[Tim Bonney]

I'll be honest Sandy, I don't trust Lifeway's stats because I don't trust the theology behind the stats. Will Lifeway assume everyone who wasn't Baptized as an adult is a fair target for a church plant? Will Lifeway do as the SBC did when it broke the commity agreement with the ABC (Then NBC) and say "there is no Baptist witness" where there is clearly a non-SBC Baptist church around the corner?

Southern Baptists have a pretty narrow definition of what constitutes church and at times it is a pretty self-serving definition.

[David Flick]

[Sandy]

Lifeway's stats match up pretty well with just about everyone else who does the same kind of survey work. I don't know if either of you were involved in SBC work at the time that they began planting churches in Kansas, or anywhere else in the area that was part of some sort of regional "non-encroachment" agreement, but if it wasn't a problem for you until you became involved with ABC-USA, then complaining now is superfluous.

It seems that there's been plenty of available people for new church plants for any denomination that wants to actively work the field, regardless of where it is. And that's the key, "actively work the field."

[William Thornton]

It's sort of a trigger for some when NAMB or whomever says that there is "no Gospel witness" in a community with churches. I would admit that often there is a valid objection to that bit of overreach; however, NAMB now allocates funding on party by using a SBC church/population ratio. Those places with high ratios get less (or no) funding. If there are ABC or CBF churches present...why not offer an alternative?

Comity, Timothy? What comity? There ain't no stinkin' comity in this bidness. Two baptist, one Southern Baptist, and one nondenominational church have located within blocks of my former church.

Even in my SBC church rich state there are deliberate church plants, mainly because established churches are doing little to reach certain segments of the population. I'm among those who fully recognizes that while they may be loving, serving congregations, many churches care little about making an effort to bring an authentic Gospel witness to their community, unless you define Gospel witness as having a Sunday AM service for whomever wishes to show up.

[Sandy]

Having a building with a sign out front designating it as a meeting place for a Baptist church, with "everyone welcome" tacked on at the bottom, conducting a Sunday morning worship service, and maybe a Sunday School does not define a "church," nor does it define a viable "Baptist witness." I've seen a lot of churches, SBC included, that exist, but are not Biblical communities, and are not a "gospel witness."

Overall, within the American population at large, the number of people who identify as Christians, regardless of the stripe, is declining. I do not believe there is a place anywhere in the country where a new church plant would not have a viable ministry among unreached people, if it deliberately targeted that kind of an audience. Most people these days, if they leave an established church, are attracted into mega churches with inwardly focused smorgasbord ministries. It's not likely that a church plant would proselyte members out of existing churches. It's too much work, and not enough money.

[Mrs Haruo]

I think there is a lot of room for church plants reaching out to different populations. There is one down the street from us that meets at 2:30 on Sunday afternoons. I have visited several times, and a lot of the congregation do outreach to prisons or nursing homes in the morning. Other members are disabled and need a lot of help or time getting ready to get out of the house or work odd schedules and find it difficult to make a morning worship. Just this morning I heard about a small congregation of artists in another city that meet for a Bible lesson, then proceed to do sculpture or paintings or other artwork to express what they have just been studying. Refugee populations who wish to enjoy the foods and customs and music of "back home" while learning the ropes of living in the US are a natural outreach for many churches. A LOT of people of my generation and younger have been turned off by traditional church settings for one reason or another and often can be reached by something a little different. I know I am not the only one who finds the "Mega-Church" scene to be too big and impersonal and "whiz-bang" for my taste.

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed; Tim I agree with much of your post immediately above Sandy's. But being my picky self I would re word the comment where you say "One of the worst things about denominationalism (any denomination) is that at times we are more intersted in promoting our franchise than being a part of the whole Church of God", to read the body of Christ, rather than the whole Church of God.

And Sandy when you say that most of my questions listed have nothing to do with church planting, I believe you are being short sighted. But I think it is you who knows little about church planting if you do not see the validity of those 9 major questions with some additions to explain them.

How is wanting to know the zip code of the area where you recently did a week of working with a church planter not pertinent? You presented that experience as a counter to my comment that I have never seen a a significant geographical area on a major U.S. City with NO evangelical witness as SBC Church planters often claim in their pleas for funding. AND SBC pastors frequently quote to encourage greater giving by their congregations. You say you believe that stats the Church planter you worked with are accurate. How can that be if the area covered is not well defined? You talk about ABC Churches Closing and consolidating as if it where some sort of shame. I am glad to here it because I have advocated such a strategy for nearly three decades. It is not an anti evangelistic nor evangelical idea.

In all honesty I believe one reason denominations of many stripes are shrinking is is that the people in the pew are not convinced by a lot of the fund raising hype, given to support the perceived needs of people building resumes. I think you are reluctant to del with my questions because you recognize that honest answers weaken the arguments for SBC church plating in "eastern" cities north of Baltimore.

As I have said before If the SBC is going to tell me about the needs of Northern cites, they are first going to have to show me significant improvement in stats on crime, hunger and family unity in their own cities, and how it relates to their ministry. I would like to see what would happen to Louisville, New Orleans, and Fort Worth if for five years the SBC spent half the funds that they now spend on church planting outside of their traditional area on addressing, the triplet problems of Family degeneration, Poverty and Crime led by Local church programing, with the assistance of the three major SBC Seminaries located in those cities., and perhaps a boost by the other three.

[Tim Bonney]

Good points Ed. I'm afraid I've gotten into the connectional church habit of referring to the "Body of Christ" as the "Church" with a capital "C" while the local church is the church with a small c. I think we mean the same thing.

You've hit on a real problem with all these churches all wanting to build a brand new building, etc. Are we spending more money, as Christians, each building our own individual churches rather than finding new ways to work together? I'd love to see more churches considering sharing a building or agreeing to consult on church plants so that new churche are not right on top of each other. I'd also like to see people admit that just because different denominations use different language and terms for their faith walk it doesn't mean that other Christians aren't saved. I always have appreciate the ecumenical nature of the ABC/USA and also what I know of the CBF that I never saw in the SBC.

[Sandy]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

The amount of time and resources put into church plants varies among state conventions. NAMB works through them to coordinate church planting efforts and to provide local leadership. There are benchmarks for when a church plant becomes an independent church, in attendance and financial stability. Right now, in Greater Pittsburgh, there are seven related to SBC work, four that get state convention and NAMB assistance, three that are sponsored by local churches. There are also various types of support that they receive. Three of them applied to Lifeway to participate in their P-2 Missions program, and had teams come in and do specific projects over the summer to help with the outreach. And the local association coordinates the work of several dozen mission teams from churches all over the place who come to Pittsburgh in the summer to assist with church planting. The survival rate is pretty good around here, as it is across Pennsylvania. The number of churches in the state convention has doubled in a decade, mostly because of the church planting work.

[Tim Bonney]

[Mrs Haruo]

Tim- I agree on you about Methodists tending to be much more involved with trying to solve community social problems than many SBC churches. I am not a cradle Baptist- in fact I was unchurched for the most part till I was in High School. One Christian influence I had was Girl Scout leaders who were from the Methodist church in the neighborhood. In the month of March, the Scouts observe Girl Scout Week, and you are encouraged to wear your uniform to church or temple or wherever you worship that week. Our leaders explained this to us and always said "If you don't have a church your family goes to you are welcome to come with me, and that was the one time I went to church each year through most of elementary school. As an adult, when I was a Girl Scout leader in another state, and the church I had been a member of for quite a few years had a new pastor and his wife seemed determined to stamp out something called "secular humanism" I thought having my troop meet at the church instead of the elementary school might be a great outreach, but she sneered at me and said "Oh yes, you have become involved with that SECULAR organization. They had a fortress mentality too, and discouraged public schools, books about dinosaurs, etc. After awhile I got tired of being expected to hang my brains at the door and dropped out. The art museum near my home put an announcement in the local paper that the were wanting volunteers to train to give public tours and being an arts major, I went to their training sessions. The museum was across the street from the Methodist church, and many of the volunteers who staffed the front desk and did fundraising activities for the museum and gave tours were women from the Methodist church. I was relieved to find out that it was possible to be educated and also be a Christian.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]