Adrian Rogers, 'rising star of Memphis,' elected 35 years ag

[William Thornton]

[William Thornton]

I think that Adrian's election as the first of the series of conservatives, his forgoing the traditional second term, and his re-election for two years in the middle of the resurgence was a brilliant decision. I have never seen that explained.

[Stephen Fox]

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

One of your few quite cogent posts here, Stephen, even if I don't buy all that you say. I did delete the gratuitous and unchristian Nazi stuff.

When Shurden concludes that the CR would not have happened without Adrian, I get the sense that a sense of reality is acknowledged in spite of strong disagreement. Many moderates to this day maintain and live in their own alternate universe filled with mythology about the CR.

If the CR consisted of a single annual meeting with a favorable election result, a disaffected moderate could be more sanguine about the results npt representing any broad SBC feelings, "They got lucky on that election", "Rogers mesmerized the masses", or the like. But the necessity of repeating the same arduous process for a decade - getting people to attend the meetings, electing like minded presidents, making the right nominations, getting the nominations approved at the meetings, fending off moderate parliamentary maneuvers, dealing with a universally and virulently hostile denominational press - was an astonishing achievement. While Patterson and Pressler were indispensable to the process in their roles, without Adrian it would not ha pave come together. None of the other characters, Criswell, Vines, Smith, et al, had the necessary charisma.

[Stephen Fox]

Hear my point William. In the last few days I have had a strong dose of Charles Marsh writings. He grew up in Charles Pickering's church in Laurel Mississippi just a few blocks away from Sam Bowers. Pickering is now a leader with the ADF, the Reagan and Tea Party administration ongoing challenge to the Baptist Joint Committee. Pick was also on the Peace Committee.

I think you know Bowers story.

A matter of degree, wrapping their religion to the state. There is no denying there was a strong dose of that evident with Pressler and Helms and Adrian Rogers key church member Ed McAteer etc.

May be hard for you to stomach but a take on this aspect of Baptist history that has long and deep footnotes.

So please don't delete a strong truth you may find nauseating.

And the "milder version" phrase I revamp from a dissent early in the Bush admnistration Bill Hull himself ratified in my presence. So if Bill Hull can be quoted in the BP story have the integrity to let me quote Bill Hull as well, rather remind you what Bill Hull was thinking as late as 2003

[William Thornton]

Then quote Bill Hull, Stephen, and likely avoid my editing. You are either going to be relevant here to the topic or not have your stuff stand.

[Haruo]

Richard Marius sounds like he's bigoted against the obese.

[Sandy]

I've been reading Stephen's theories regarding the conservative resurgence in the SBC here for a long time. The evidence doesn't support his theories altogether, though there are a few accurate observations in them, here and there.

There's no way that the conservatives could have sustained long term control of the officers, and thus the key to trustee appointments, without a supportive majority in the churches. While only a small fraction, about 8-12%, of the churches in the convention are represented in any given year, over the course of a decade, according to the records between 1979 and 1989 (per the SBC annual report published by Lifeway), messengers from over 22,000 churches attended during that time. A significant majority of churches and the messengers they sent had to be informed, and in agreement with the aims of the new leadership in order to pull that off and sustain it over time. Worthen points this out, BTW.

As it turned out, by the facts, those within the SBC who were representative of the "other side" were a relatively small fragment of the membership. Even among the largest splinter group, CBF, which still has a substantial majority of churches within its ranks that support the SBC financially, the view that you represent is not held by the majority. It required repeated attendance by the same small clique of messengers year after year to keep control, and as long as there wasn't an organized effort among conservatives, they could hang on based on the provincial, backward way the convention operates. But once the conservatives pulled together, they were doomed.

Likening this to the way churches in Germany responded to Hitler is offensive, and is not even a reasonable comparison.

[William Thornton]

[ET]

[Sandy]

[Stephen Fox]

He demanded everybody believe like he did in the History and Science of the first 11 chapters of Genesis.--see what Bryant College in Dayton Tn is going through today.

Ed McAteer was his ultimate culture warrior at Bellevue and Adrian locked in the Helms/Pressler/McAteer agenda at every point of the way, the Paul Weyrich plan to flip Jimmy Carter out of office.

Bellevue had its own seminary, Mid America in competition with the SBC Seminaries,so Adrian was all but independent Baptist like Vines and Stanley when Criswell Patterson and Pressler rexruited them further into The Cause.

Just because Sandy and William refuse to accept these hard truths doesn't make them any less so!

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

Stephen, you're going to stick to the subject and avoid your pet flights of fantasy. They will be deleted.

You raise a relevant point on AR and Mid-America although facts on the relationship argue against your point. To wit:

MABTS was not Bellevue's seminary. It began elsewhere prior to AR arriving in Memphis. The church and seminary were and are close but the church contributed a generous amount though only small fraction of the school's budget. A school that has
predominantly SB students, all SB faculty, and almost all support from SB churches and individuals is a southern baptist seminary.


...but I congratulate you stephen. This is the most actual dialogue you have undertaken in quite some time.

[Stephen Fox]

First, Sandy, Bryant was a typo. I've lived in Alabama for almost 30 years now and every other toe head and his uncle is named Bryant after the Coach so its almost an afterthought.

I'm well aware of Bryan College in Dayton Tn and everything Rachel Held Evans has written about Evolvinb in Monkeytown. In fact I thought I linked at one point a recent NYtimes piece on Bryan College and how the President there is now trying to navigate the first 11 chapters of Genesis with his trustees the way Adrian and Company forced Furman, Stetson, Wake Forest etc--you know the litany--when the fundamentalists brought the takeover down to the state convention level; Nelson Price be praised.

BTW, William, I forgot Jimmy Carter and Nelson Price used to be great friends; in fact Carter had Price either pray or preach the morning of his inauguration as President in D.C. All that before James Dickey delivered his great poem The Strength of Fields.

Oh, my anecdote, and I concede it is just that, anecdotal but strong. Serendipitously I stumbled onto Tracy Thompson's New Mind of the South this afternoon, a work I had my eyes on since I read the Hal Crowther review last Summer in the Oxford American. Tracy raised Southern Baptist in Atlanta in the 80s, takes a tour of the deep south couple years ago and wanders into a Southern Baptist Church in Clarksdale, Mississippi to see what registers. She opined that her memories of overly strict and mind numbing community but strong sense of belonging were frayed. She said a church where you were practically begged to join as she remembered the warmth and invitation of her childhood, the sermon she heard that morning raised a sense of suspicion about the person sitting next to you on the pew. Was their Doctrine right? She said the Inclusivity she remembered of the early 80s and before had been replaced by a palpable Exclusivity.

I don't think she was briefed by Randall Balmer or Walter Shurden. She got it right away. Such is the legacy of the Memphis Star.

[Sandy]

[Stephen Fox]

Here is my Invitation, one of the few altar calls I've given in my Life. I have every intention of being present in Atlanta for the Friday afternoon Balmer workshop if Thornton would like to join me.

[William Thornton]

Thanks for the invite stephen but I'll pass. Feel free to do a recap on the BFM forum. If you would drive the extra 30 miles or so over here' I'll buy you BBQ.

[Stephen Fox]

Thought about meeting you at Buford and I'm still open if you get to Rome sometime, but quite frankly I saw no need for you to edit my last post. I have a legitimate point to make and I guess I'll have to make it elsewhere.

You monitor this SBC Trends aspect and I appreciate your contribution and am grateful for most of our history on this board.

However I strongly dissent from the last few edits in this conversation about the legacy of Adrian Rogers.

We're still friends, Hope things otherwsie are well. Not sure about my North Georgia route this afternoon, but was toying with the Buford Mall.

May post Monday or so

[William Thornton]

Sure, were friends. I would like you to stay on topic and not venture to the extremes.

[Stephen Fox]

With the latest grand analogous link and placed myself at the mercy of the Deliberations of Dr. Bruce Gourley.

[Sandy]

I'm guessing that dialogue on this subject isn't something in which Stephen wants to participate.

[William Thornton]

[Dave Roberts]

William, what ever happened with Dr. Rogers' promises to the senior adults of Bellevue. He told them, and I got this directly from my wife's grandmother who was one of them, to sell their jewelry, bring their savings, and cash in their retirement accounts. He said that Bellevue would be building senior adult facilities in the New Canaan and the church would take care of them. They also would be in walking distance of the new church facilities. Were his promises ever fulfilled?