Pressler says it started at2nd Houston with Johnny Baugh

[Stephen Fox]

And what Pressler called a Whitewash committee on Ralph Elliot. See the story at www.abpnews.com

Lot more to come on this one. Way passed time for BHHS to talk to Chandler Davidson at Rice and Pressler's family history in the Texas Legislature that went after Carlyle Marney at FBC Austin in the 50's for supporting Brown V Board. And so far Sandy is the only one on this board to take a close look at Molly Worthen's Apostles of Reason. Time for the rest of you to come up to speed and Help Pressler remember better.

[Mrs Haruo]

Fox, when are you going to bury these old bones and come into the 21st century?

[Stephen Fox]

[Ed Pettibone]

So what is new? Pressler has been spouting that stuff for decades. The story about what Dr. Schaffer told Pressler's friend Jess Crain. is on p 263 in A Hill On Which To Die.

I really do not understand why you and Bob Allen continue to promote his stuff. The story of the judge and his wife going to the Student apartment of Paige & Dorthy Patterson, and the visit to the Cafe du Monde starts on p 59.

John Baugh also told his story, In His book THE BATTLE FOR BAPTIST INTEGRITY

[Sandy]

[KeithE]

Thanks Fox for bringing up this new historical article. While I’ve long been an advocate of complete SBC/CBF separation, a little history of the "conservative resurgence" or “takeover" (or whatever you want to call it) never hurts.

[Ed Pettibone]

[KeithE]

[William Thornton]

There's always a market for this stuff here.

I'm not sure why Bob Allen thought there was much news in it for ABP. Lately, all the CBFers are clamoring, 'let's move on.'

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: William, would you explain that phrase "pre conservative SBC"? When was the SBC anything other than conservative?

Also where do you here any one in the CBF clamoring "Let's Move on"? Mostly what I hear at CBF events Is "We have moved on and we are doing great things but we have not arrived", and reminders that like the SBC of old and new, we are not GOD's LAST & ONLY HOPE. CBF emphasis much more the need to work with other Christiana organizations and still protect and project our Baptist Identity.

[Neil Heath]

I have no idea where people think such talk is coming from after all these years. Almost all my contacts are with CBF people and I don't hear it from the leadership or from others. I'm personal friends with all the state staff, and it never comes up in our conversations. I'm serving my third year of a 3-year term on the state Coordinating Council. I can't say that I've heard any "let's move on" talk during my time there. That group is a good mix of young people with no direct connection to the past and folks like me who lived and served through the takeover years. We are energized by opportunities, not by any anger about the past. There are those among us who remember what happened with deep feelings, but that's in the past. It doesn't come up except as we might grieve over current fresh pain of friends and churches still dealing with the SBC/GBC world--and those are getting fewer every year.

I think we stopped looking back a long time ago in favor of asking where we can go from here, and how can we best serve Christ today with the resources at hand while developing more resources. Our frustrations are directed at having more ministry doors open than we can walk thru. We celebrated our 20th anniversary last year, and our energy is focused in positive directions for the future. A task force has spent the past year looking at where we should focus next, along with the structures that will best serve those goals. A lot of good stuff is happening, but nobody is wasting time on the past.

That "one consistent theme" Sandy described may have been there when he was a part of CBF in TX, but it's no longer a part of the world I know, the people I spend time with, or the meetings I attend.

[Sandy]

That doesn't come across from CBF's press releases, especially such as the one Stephen posted here. It doesn't sound like "we've moved on" it sounds like "the meanies won and we can't get past it." Every time I hear the word "takeover" it underlines and emphasizes the fact that CBF not only hasn't moved on, but there is still resentment over it. I can't figure out how people who belong to, and have full voting rights in an organization can "take over" something they have every right and ability to lead according to the existing rules, but that's an attitude that speaks a lot louder than the words, "We've moved on and we're doing great things." It says "we haven't moved on and we have an inferiority complex about it."

Bob Allen is a CBF, ABP writer and editor, and it must be coming from somewhere for him to bring it up as frequently as he does.

[William Thornton]

There were several pieces lately, Ed. A few by Gushee and by some CBF younger types. I don't know why Allen carried this story, frankly. I [almost] never bring it up here myself.

[KeithE]

While we are doing a new thing, it never hurts to review history.

Allen brought it up because Pressler retold aspects of the story to the Midwest BTS panel. No big deal on either’s part.

And Fox just posted Allen’s article. I appreciated it because it remind me or perhaps informed for the first time about certain apparent facts I had forgotten or never knew. Again no big deal.

[Sandy]

If CBF has moved on, then why would Pressler and Patterson's reminiscing, or even making an appearance at Midwestern, be newsworthy for them? There was nothing new in anything that Pressler said, nothing inaccurate, and nothing that a group that has "moved on" would be interested in reading about.

[KeithE]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

OK. We'll disconnect the two, except that I believe ABP receives a lot of its financial support from CBF. Hard to ignore other stuff that Allen writes, though, which does make a connection.

The "independent, autonomous, it's his baby" thing works, but only up to a point.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Stephen Fox]

After 150 years scholars are still tweaking the Civil War. Just last week on an NPR show I heard the best articulation of why it, the Civil War mattered I've ever heard, It registered for the first time.

So it is with the historical significance of the SBC Takeover. Keith understands, I am disappointed Neil Heath doesn't have a better apprecaiton of history understood, and I gave up on Pettibone as being anything more than pettifoggery a long time ago.

I am proud to say I am in Randall Balmer's corner in this brilliant review of Worthen up last week at the Century. Sandy can keep beatin his head against the wall on Francis Schaeefer, there is not much more I can do to help him.

As for Thornton, all I got to say is a just sent a tribute note to my GHS tennis coach for whom the courts are being named in Camden S.C,, Roger a 63 classmate of Yates Frady's son Marshall.

For One and All, Hear the Gospel, the Truth; a "Tragedy"

http://www.christiancentury.org/reviews ... ly-worthen

[Neil Heath]

Not sure what you mean about me, Stephen. I lived it, and know the history pretty well.

[Sandy]

No bias there, huh, Stephen? A review of one pseudo-intellectual by another. It's like bringing your own cheerleaders to the ball game.

You really need to read something by Schaeffer, especially after reading Worthen. It will be a refreshing, and enlightening experience. He's a dynamic and inspirational writer. She writes like a professor would lecture. Until you've read Schaeffer yourself, all you are offering here is your own biased view. Read Schaeffer and you will at least see why his ideas were so captivating to Southern Baptists, and why Worthen concedes that the SBC shift was inevitable, and wasn't a "takeover," but merely a leadership adjustment.

The ongoing significance of the SBC conservative resurgence is that it turned a major denomination from a path toward liberalism, and back to its conservative roots. Schaeffer was a contributor to that, and if you read him, you'll see why.

[Stephen Fox]

The Balmer review of April 15?

If so he needs to read it. Schaffer doesn't stack up.

I hope Lamar and KeithE and Neil, even Thornton read Worthen soon as Sandy will never take my word. Either Sandy's reading comprehension is much worse than any of us ever imagined, or he is so hell bent on spinning Worthen into saying something she clearly does not endorse, even concede.