Molly Worthen on SBC Takeover, Francis Schaeffer, etc

[Ed Pettibone]

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/ ... y-worthen/

[Stephen Fox]

http://themarginaliareview.com/archives/5496

[Stephen Fox]

Ed. pick up this furman chat at History forum where there is a thread devoted to Furman. I think your fears re Furman new Hire and Texas are misplaced but we can take it up there.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Stephen Fox]

She is a member of Calvary Baptist Church which gave Julie Pennington Russell to FBC Decatur. So Ed you biases are out to lunch re the Texas Connection to Furman's New President.

There is a link to the ABP story in the Furman thread in the History section of this site if you care to take it up there or better inform yourself.

[Stephen Fox]

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1484994833/ref=rdr_ext_tmb

[Ed Pettibone]

A goggle search for something else brought me back to this thread, in reading through I found this quote from Tim Bonney "I started at SBTS in 1986 and was in the last year or so of Roy Honeycutts time there. ... I transferred to MBTS in 1987."

For the record Tim, 1986 was more than a few years short of the end to Roy Honeycutt's time at SBTS. Bruce Gourley and I along with a few hundred others Graduated from SBTS in May of 1992, and Roy singed both of our diplomas, and presided over the graduation exercises with President Jimmy Carter as the featured speaker. To that point it was the largest class to ever graduate from THE SOUTHERN BAPTIST THEOLOGICAL SEMINARY . I am not sure they have ever gotten back to having a class as large as ours. I do know they had not done so by the time Trudy Received her M.Div. in may of 1998.

[Gene Scarborough]

Gentlemen ---

It is hard to be nice to Steve Fox at times, but he does have his place.

The title drew my attention because I have experience with the historical redaction now being attempted by Dr. Nathan Finn at SEBTS. This particular one has to do with N. Rocky Mount Baptist Church in Rocky Mount, NC. I pastored that church in its final years until it was obvious that dissolution and sale of the property to a good black congregation was the only option they really had.

This church became famous in the annals of the SBC for a late-50's controversy over "who was the real SBC congregation." It involved a fundamentalist Preacher out of Bob Jones University who snuck into a regular old Baptist church of Mill Village variety. It had a monster SS and was the hub of the community. His "wedge" was the RSV vs. KJV (perfect) Bible.

The case went all the way to the NC State Supreme Court on appeal and the Nash County decision was upheld. It drew from witnesses as to "real Baptist" from SEBTS professors / local pastors / a "to be" Executive Secretary for NC Baptists. It cited multiple sources --- then used to define "Baptist." The main topics cited were the definition of Autonomy and Missions --- both of which the invading Pastor ignored as he conned the slight majority into leaving the SBC and becoming Independent.

Dr. Finn is contending that this shows how Baptists wanted/had the kinds of things Conservative Resurgence wants. It is his contention that the NCBSC and others manipulated and distorted things to try and defeat the intruder. In other words, he is attempting a redaction of real and documented Baptist history --- especially in NC --- only a 45-minute ride from the town of Wake Forest and the SEBTS campus.

I quickly responded and offered him a copy of the transcript which I have. He could care less. I offered to put him in touch with older members of my church who could vouch for what I was saying --- since most of my "verbal inspiration" knowledge came from them. Again, he contended --- and then dropped the matter to my knowledge.

At least in NC, we have a legal precedent for contending the old NCBSC --- its leadership and outlook was consistent with what was believed and done in the 50's -- the "Golden Age of Baptist Growth." It really does not change the outcome of the Baptist fist fight which is certainly over. It does show how triumphalism invades life.

Dr. Finn is a young "expert." He is depending on the "New SEBTS" for his livelihood. I can't blame him for trying. In the "now removed from CBF and other Baptists" school many of us knew.

For me it is a violation of all I know and loved. I shall take time shortly to peruse the things cited by Steve. For once, it might be better to pat him on the back for "job well done" to bring this subject to the front.

When the "winners" write the history --- of course, it makes sure to defend and depict them as being "right." Right Wing --- YES / Right to keep the best of Baptists --- NO X 100.

If one considers the turmoils of the Early Church and its morphing into the Roman Catholic Church (as opposed to the Greek Orthodox first split) --- we see a clear repetition of history in my view. From Jesus with the Apostles and Paul --- to a Pope / Priests / Monasteries / Canon / etc. is an interesting journey fraught with large egos and large battles over such a silly word as "homoion" vs. "homoosion." What average church attender could give a rat's you-know-what over then --- and now.

But people and posterity deserve a better rendition of truth than what is coming from the SBC these days ---- in my view.

[Stephen Fox]

Got a text this morning. Glorious day to use phrase of Master Eppes in 12 Yrs a Slave to see Snyder moving forward. I plan to email some of their former pastors and current staff in that regard soon that at least one former member is seeing the light.

Good news comes on the day I pick up a copy of the book at juco nacc.edu. Here's hoping it gains some readers here as it moves into Robeson County.

[Stephen Fox]

it will look something like this

http://www.religiondispatches.org/archi ... on_and_me/

And I imagine she is familiar with what Duke's Tim Tyson is doing with Moral Mondays in North Carolina

[Stephen Fox]

http://esrh.blogspot.com/2013/10/molly- ... alism.html

[Sandy]

[Stephen Fox]

I wish I had it in front of me, but her analysis of Francis Schaeffer perverting history the way the fundies perverted inerrancy for ecclesiastical and secular political ends; maybe it comes down to an interpretation of the text, but I didn't get the same thing you got, Sandy. In no place does she imply in my reading what Pressler and Schaeffer did was benign, a course correction; rather it was a demagged perversion of denominational history they were able to use to mobilize the unsuspecting folks in the pew.

You got in the Olson review, where in Worthen's view Al Mohler's hero Francis Schaeffer, is a charlatan. And she has nice analysis of Mark Noll's correspondence with Schaeffer in the 80s. So like I spelled out for you and Thornton, Sandy, in politics and public room on Pressler's Hill, it is you and Thornton's reading comprehension that is suspect.

I guess we have to hope Aaron Weaver and Bruce Gourley himself read and weigh in now. I do hope Scarborough reads the book carefully. Molly finishes shtron in chapters 8, 9 and ten.

OR, maybe Sandy replied before reading the Review two posts up. He skipped an excellent review link to respond to Gene and dump on me!

[Sandy]

[Haruo]

What does "demagged" mean?

[Stephen Fox]

I think that is close to correct spelling. Hopefully Friday I can post Worthen's concluding paragraph on Schaeffer, who Roger Olson says Worthen profiled as a "charlatan".

[Stephen Fox]

http://wunc.org/post/apostles-reason-fi ... l-polarity

[Sandy]

[Haruo]

[Sandy]

Regardless of the research, Worthen's own perspective and position makes any evaluation she makes of Francis Shaeffer biased. It is easy to pick up on that, but I think Stephen exaggerates her position somewhat. As his reviewer friend Roger Olson says, "She's weak in offering practical advice to Evangelicals." The religious left and intellectual elites hate Shaeffer with a passion because he was an intellectual with well-supported arguments against their philosophical and religious positions, and his prolific writing was a major contribution to the solidifying and unifying of the branch of American Protestantism known as the Conservative Evangelical movement. The unfortunate side of that is that he gets the blame for a lot of things that developed that he didn't really have anything to do with, such as dominionism and reconstructionism, and he gets accused of supporting and fanning the flames of the threads and strains of anti-intellectualism among Evangelicals. But he was pretty up front, and to his credit, those who met him face to face didn't find any of that to be true. To call him a demagogue is to exhibit a complete lack of knowledge of his approach and work, or a level of resentment and bias that disqualifies you from making an evaluation, or just ignorance of the definition of the word. That falls in the same category as accusing W.A. Criswell of involvement in the masterminding of the Kennedy assassination, or of the "serious danger" that Billy Graham's legacy is in.

Instead of posting the usual list of names, why don't you answer a question? How many of Shaeffer's books have you read, and which ones?

[Stephen Fox]

[Stephen Fox]

Most timely piece, from Gushee who with Carey Newman in Barry Hankins piece testified in the early days of the Mohler covenant 9(94 or so) at SBTS. "God Was not in this place."

http://abpnews.com/news/item/28350-what ... xD_CNiYaM8

[Sandy]

[Stephen Fox]

I have better things on the docket. I see what he did for Al Mohler and Tully Tchividjian and I have no use for him.

Life is short. I am 60; there are better things to read like the essays of James Wood in the New Yorker--see Why Dec 9, 2013--and the short stories of Ron Rash. I may read some of N. T. Wright's new book on Paul.

Molly Worthen does not hate Francis Schaeffer. Only the most thin skinned chip on the shoulder fundy would read Molly in context and come to that conclusion. She does talk about the exchange he had early on with Mark Noll, and find him on the whole to be full of "bluster". At one point she refers to him as a "demagogue". Roger Olson interprets it all as Molly dismissing FS as a "charlatan".

Consensus is in from Mark Noll, to MOlly and now to Olson. He doesn't stack up and I'm sad Sandy is so resentful.

Waiting on the Rancall Balmer review in the Century. Just tody I brought Molly's book to the attention of the former associate editor of the Alabama Baptist, Andrew Westmoreland, President of Samford University, good friend of Fox News Mike Huckabee; and to the prayer line of Chic Fil A Cares where I have every reason to believe my former classmate in Robert Crapps Intro to religion at Furman fall of 71, Dan Cathy himself, will be reading soon!