CBF seminary student, female, speaks plainly

[William Thornton]

[Ed Pettibone]

[William Thornton]

Perhaps the ABC needs to have a recruitment plan for CBF related seminaries.

[Sandy]

It seems to me that CBF is in about the same position as the SBC was in around 1979 or so, with leaders and organizations who are open to things that independent, autonomous churches aren't willing to do, and it puts them in a position of taking an authoritative, scolding tone toward the churches who aren't demonstrating the kind of openness that the leaders think they should. We've seen that attitude criticized, and those who take it vilified, when it comes to the SBC.

CBF is twenty years old, now. Rather than still making excuses for why it isn't happening, I think there are a couple of conclusions that can be drawn. One, God just isn't opening the doors of opportunity to very many women to serve in churches that are part of CBF. So either the churches aren't listening to God by not calling more women into the pastorate, or they are listening and he's just not calling them. The other conclusion, and the one I would lean toward, would be that most CBF churches and their members are more linked to the SBC, in terms of both affiliation and interpretation of scripture, and are simply putting into practice their belief that one of the qualifications for serving as pastor is that he be a husband, and therefore, male. It is either not important enough of an issue for them to risk their relationships with associations or the convention, or they are holding to their beliefs and convictions, and don't accept the broader interpretation of the fellowship's leaders.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Tim I agree with much of what you said above.

Tim: "I'm glad Trudy was able to find a church home in her faith family. But many women are told by their faith family that they are welcome in church as long as they are second class Christians."

Ed: Of course that involved a 715 Mile move from our home in Cincinnati to the Capital area of Ny for an interim position when getting started. We ended up selling the tri-plex in Cinci when she accepted a settled pastorate in a 2 church parish in the Adirondacks, at about half the pay of her last secular job before finishing her B.A., three years of Seminary for an M.Div and 2 years for a second Masters at Hebrew Union. We did have a solid old 2 story farmhouse with a tin roof as the parsonage. That house had been moved from across the highway in the 1920's, to face west and provided a great view of the Gore Mountain Ski area. http://www.goremountain.com/mountain/ab ... on/history We could count the lift cars from our front porch. And we where newbies to the ABC faith family at just three years out of the SBC. Of course the last 11 years in the SBC had been in CBF affiliated churches in Florida and Kentucky. Only one those 4 churches is still affiliated with the SBC. In 2010 we moved back to Civilization in an upwardly mobile suburb of Albany, to yet another American Baptist church founded in the late 18th Century, the present building was built in 1838.

She plans to have her student loans paid off about three years before she retires in 2019.

[Sandy]

Ed, you're a good apologist for CBF, but it seems like their leadership is speaking for itself, and it seems there are a couple of issues on which they are determined to push the envelope. Getting the fellowship to drop its position on hiring gays and lesbians is one, and pushing churches to call women as pastors is another. And they're using the standard methods that Baptists have always used to make a change.

Timothy, if churches aren't sensing the movement of the Holy Spirit in calling a woman as a pastor, they aren't closing the door on opportunity. I trust the collective discernment of a congregation a whole lot more than the ambitions of an individual. I know a lot of ministers who are serving, not because they were called by God, but because they were called by their own ambition, or by the influence of someone else. God speaks through people, whether it is a congregation that collectively and honestly says, "we can't fall a female pastor," or through the movement of large segments of local churches when people leave because they don't feel comfortable with their church's stance on pastoral qualifications.

[Tim Bonney]

That's quite a lot of miles Ed!

I know NY has a lot of ABC churches. But the way the ABC is spread out here in the upper midwest a church move can take in quite a bit of geography for anyone.

I don't see this as a specifically CBF problem. Even denominations like the UMC that have appointments we are still far from half the clergy being women even though more than half our laity are women.

[Tim Bonney]

[Ed Pettibone]

Tim Bonmey wrote "Just because you formed a committee at a church doesn't mean the Holy Spirit got invited. (True for all churches btw, not a ding on Baptists.)"

Ed: That Deserves a Golden Spur.

And Tim, please note I revised my mileage from Cincinnati to Albany it is 715 rather than 751. But then you add 85 miles to North Creek and you see why I gave up being an absentee landlord.

And Sandy, the younger folk in CBF who lean to promotion of a homosexual agenda have no idea the resistance they will meet if they continue to push for a change the present hiring policy toward being Gay friendly. They won't miss myself and others my age and our tithe (really they don't get mine, ABC does and CBF only gets part of our offerings, But there are a couple generations behind who today pay a significant portion of the bills. And also there is the group who are waiting for the Male chauvinism in my age group to die off, before they insist on real opportunity for women pastors. Their are also female Seminary class mates of mine (a good bit younger) who are beginning to retire from chaplaincy positions who will be able take smaller churches just to be actively serving their pastoral call and supplement an already good retirement pay. Others who have been forced to take other employment Teaching Nursing ect, will be in the same favorable position. I have seen some ABC churches wake up to the fact that they can't afford to house, feed and educate one of the young quiver full males and their brood. And they have suddenly become more open to a "Lady Preacher".

And Sandy I would still liek to know where and when you have seen any one in CBF leadership pushing for "women" in the pastorate. What form does this "pushing" take. I have head some say I will support women in Ministry 100%, but I will not interfere with local church autonomy. And unlike some of my friends, I have no problem with that.

From what you have written in the last day or two I take it you would say that to ask (note, I said ask) an association to dedicate a Sunday when women would be invited by each church to fill the pulpits, would be pushing. If so we have a strong disagreement. We have a friend who is quite supportive of women in ministry in fact has had Trudy preach during revivals in his church but he will not surrender the pulpit to any living soul Female or Male on a Sunday morning even to the detriment of his ow health. I say he is radical, but to the best of my knowledge he has baptized as many or more than any other pastor in the association this year.

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Dave Roberts]

Any time you deal with autonomous local churches, decisions have to rise from the local congregation. There are gradually becoming more women in CBF churches, but it only happens one church at a time. I understand Ms. Hix's frustration with the fact that it isn't happening faster, but it is happening, at least in the area where I live. The largest Baptist church in VA served by a woman is Hampton Baptist (over 1,100 total members). There are a number of smaller churches, and a number of associate positions that are open to ordained women. No, it isn't happening fast, and it won't, but it is happening.

[Tim Bonney]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Haruo]

[Sandy]

Haruo, they were not pastors. The church used the practice of "ordination" as a setting aside, but they've never ordained a female who has actually expressed an interest in serving as the pastor of a church. Many SBC churches wouldn't extend formal ordination to females, regardless of where they served, but most churches recognize that ordination is not really a formally prescribed process or ceremony from a scriptural perspective, but it is a recognition of a call to ministry. The formal ceremony and the piece of paper, in this country, largely has to do with tax status, not church credentials.

Timothy, I think district bishops and their cabinets can make decisions about pastoral placement and ministry calling based on preferences stated either by churches, or by the relationships they have formed, or to make a statement, as much as a search committee in a church can do. They, too, are human and fallible. I've observed several search committees, and served on two. I've seen them move from "Let's get out the resumes and find what we want," to understanding that unity of purpose, guidance of the Holy Spirit and sensing the gifts and the calling that God has placed on a person's life is more important than what the church thinks it wants or needs.

In CBF, even without the issue of calling women to the pastorate, the competition for the available pulpits is intense. The fellowship is loaded with individuals who are already trained, ordained and experienced. And a lot of those available potential pastors are from the time in the SBC when you lined up your influential friends and acquaintances to help you lobby for the pulpit you wanted. I saw at least one effort in which an individual pulled out all the stops to get a pulpit in a particular CBF church, including several university professors and a provost, and a fairly high ranking CBF coordinating council member. And I think that sort of thing is also contributing to keeping women out of CBF pulpits. Then, too, I've heard several stories of churches where women came to pastor, and the church disbanded under their ministry. Maybe they contributed to that, maybe not, but it happened.

Even in connectional denominations where the decisions are made by regional clergy, there are situations that come up where a fit doesn't happen, but they keep pushing it anyway. The Sunday School class of seniors that I taught in the last church I served in Houston had a nice, somewhat unexpected growth spurt for a period of about a year, as members from a nearby UMC that had called a female pastor began to drift in. I got ten new class members, and the church saw about 40 people altogether who left. They felt that no one was listening to their concerns. The older folks were more traditional and conservative, but we also picked up a couple of younger families.

[Haruo]

Sort of off-topic, but Mother Melissa, the rector ("Senior Pastor") of St. Paul's Episcopal Church, which has been my main place of formal (and oh, how formal! they're Anglo-Catholics) worship the past year, has just been selected as the new bishop of the diocese of New Westminster, which includes Vancouver, BC, so I will have an opportunity to see what sort of search process the TEC uses, and whether I approve of the result. She will be New Westminster's first female bishop; not sure how progressive or regressive the Canadian Anglicans are, but I'm guessing they're not too far from the American Episcopalians (as distinct from American Anglicans, who tend to be pretty reactionary and look to Uganda for their direction).

[Dave Roberts]

Actually Sandy described a lot of situations. I am certified as an intentional interim minister, and one of the things I do in the process of the church is train (or work with denominational personnel) to train a committee. To do the job a committee needs to do, whether the next pastor is male of female, the committee needs two documents in hand. The first in a church profile that identifies who the church is and how the church operates. This needs to be done openly and shared with the congregation for their feedback. Then a profile of the desired candidate needs to be done to describe the things most needed by the church in their next pastor. (I teach doing this in a gender neutral fashion, but that is only an aside.) The pastoral profile needs to be discussed in a town meeting format with the membership. Only then is a church ready to gather and consider resumes. Until then, they have not done their preparation. Calling a pastor, sadly, is often based on one of two assumptions, both of which are false. If the last pastorate was a good one, the church often is looking for someone just like the last pastor. If it was not a good experience, then the church sets out to find someone who is the opposite of the last pastor. Many churches have never done any of this carefully demanded work.

[William Thornton]

If I were a church leader I would want Dave Roberts to shepherd the congregation, helping them to plan and prepare for our next pastor.

[Ed Pettibone]

Sandy: Leslie Ann Hix wrote:Right, CBF? If these congregations really are not ready to accept women as part of their ministerial leadership, then what are they doing as part of this Baptist group? This issue is one of which you are unapologetically certain. So my instinct is to challenge them to agree and accept or disagree and get out.

That represents a bit of a push, don't you think? Here's a student at McAfee, which I believe is one of CBF's "partners," who is expressing a clear belief that part of CBF's identity as a Baptist group is its acceptance of women in ministerial leadership of churches, and suggesting that those churches which are not "unapologetically certain" of that position themselves should get out. Gee, that sounds an awful lot like fundamentalism. It sounds like she is advocating a top-down relationship between denominational structure and church. Don't they teach congregational polity and historic Baptist principles at McAfee?

Ed: Yes Sandy, Ms. Hix's Paper represents quite a push by Ms. Hix. and yes she expressed a "clear belief that part of CBF's identity as a Baptist group is its acceptance of women in ministerial leadership of churches, and suggesting that those churches which are not "unapologetically certain" of that position themselves should get out."

Ed yes she is a Student at McAfee which is indeed a CBF Partner.

But she has yet to become a CBF leader to my knowledge.

And yes Sandy McAfee teaches Baptist polity, I don' know I Ms Hix has taken that course or if she is saving for the spring. But they also teach priesthood of the believer and she was using it.

Edited to change some spelling.

I really doubt that she influenced many folk in a mind changing way. But she did prove CBF people are willing to hear the pain of others.

ABP is another CBF partner.