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Haruo wrote:I have no idea who got the thing going in 1707, and I'm not at all sure the prior activity in Rhode Island should be so lightly dismissed — though perhaps if you meant "the first enduring Baptist Association of local churches in America" instead of "the first enduring Baptist in America" there might be a case for putting Philly first. I believe it was FBC Philly that, in the 1700s (though for what specific span of years I do not recall) regularly met for worship in common with the Presbyterians. The congregations met separately only when they celebrated the Lord's Supper, performed baptisms, or held their congregational business meetings. The implications of this for the effect of Calvinism on Northern Baptist theological leanings may be worth exploring. BTW I have no certain recollection of where I read about this stuff; Vedder?
it {FBC} began in a small abandoned building known as the Barbadoes Storehouse which it shared with some Presbyterians. Very soon after the Baptists obtained their own meeting place at Anthony Morris’ Brewhouse at the intersection of Water and Dock Streets.
In 1707 the congregation took over the Keithian Quaker Meeting House next to Christ Church Episcopal at Second and Market and in this building the Philadelphia Baptist Association was formed that same year. For the next 24 years the work flourished so that in 1731 the Meeting House was replaced by a large brick building measuring 42 feet by 30 feet and was called LaGrange Place. This in turn was replaced in 1808 by a still larger and more imposing structure. In 1746 the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia was constitutionally separated from the Pennepek Church from which it had sprung in 1698 and had continued to share its minister. The REV. JENKIN JONES then resigned from Pennepek and ministered solely to the Philadelphia Church until his death in1760 at age 74. (His tombstone is in the lower stairwell of the present church.)
Haruo wrote:Thanks, Ed. That history doesn't make clear (as did the one I read a long time ago and have forgotten the source of) that while the Baptists and Presbyterians and Baptists shared a roof, the Baptists also routinely joined in the services of the Presbyterians (except, as I noted, when the ordinances or polity were at issue). This presumably made it unnecessary for the Baptist pastor to attend services most of the time (so he could continue to minister full-time, with only occasional trips to Philly, to his New Jersey congregation). I'd be interested to know how long the cohabitation lasted (your source is vague; my sense of long ago is it was more than a year anyway)...
Ed Pettibone wrote:Haruo wrote:Thanks, Ed. That history doesn't make clear (as did the one I read a long time ago and have forgotten the source of) that while the Baptists and Presbyterians and Baptists shared a roof, the Baptists also routinely joined in the services of the Presbyterians (except, as I noted, when the ordinances or polity were at issue). This presumably made it unnecessary for the Baptist pastor to attend services most of the time (so he could continue to minister full-time, with only occasional trips to Philly, to his New Jersey congregation). I'd be interested to know how long the cohabitation lasted (your source is vague; my sense of long ago is it was more than a year anyway)...
Ed: Hauro "that history" which I provided in a block quote, comes from the official web page of the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia. I think It makes quite clear that their founders "{FBC} began in a small abandoned building known as the Barbadoes Storehouse which it shared with some Presbyterians. Very soon after the Baptists obtained their own meeting place at Anthony Morris’ Brewhouse at the intersection of Water and Dock Streets.
Haruo wrote:Ed Pettibone wrote:Haruo wrote:Thanks, Ed. That history doesn't make clear (as did the one I read a long time ago and have forgotten the source of) that while the Baptists and Presbyterians and Baptists shared a roof, the Baptists also routinely joined in the services of the Presbyterians (except, as I noted, when the ordinances or polity were at issue). This presumably made it unnecessary for the Baptist pastor to attend services most of the time (so he could continue to minister full-time, with only occasional trips to Philly, to his New Jersey congregation). I'd be interested to know how long the cohabitation lasted (your source is vague; my sense of long ago is it was more than a year anyway)...
Ed: Hauro "that history" which I provided in a block quote, comes from the official web page of the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia. I think It makes quite clear that their founders "{FBC} began in a small abandoned building known as the Barbadoes Storehouse which it shared with some Presbyterians. Very soon after the Baptists obtained their own meeting place at Anthony Morris’ Brewhouse at the intersection of Water and Dock Streets.
Ed Pettibone wrote:Hauro, "that history" which I provided in a block quote, comes from the official web page of the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia. I think It makes quite clear that their founders at "{FBC} began in a small abandoned building known as the Barbadoes Storehouse which it shared with some Presbyterians. Very soon after the Baptists obtained their own meeting place at Anthony Morris’ Brewhouse at the intersection of Water and Dock Streets.'' And yes I would like to know how soon was "very soon" . But I find no mention of the Presbyterians with them in move to "their own building", however soon. Nor in the second move in 1707, nor the third move in 1731 but all that time they where still a formal part of the Pennepek church, an arrangement that continued until some time in 1746. At the rate they seem to have been growing to require these moves, I doubt that Rev Jones had left them on their own except for communions and Baptisms. Nor is their any mention of a Presbyterian pastor having been involved. And BTW Vedder in his Short History of the Baptist does does not seem to support your memory, maybe his longer work, or some other historian. BTW, for the novices, Wikipedia is a very poor source on this one.
Stephen Fox wrote:Leonard did a great job in Nov Baps Today with is tribute to the Father of Linda McKinnish Bridges!
The Philadelphia Baptist Association, was formed on the "twenty-seventh day of the seventh month, on the seventh day of the week," in the year 1707. The meeting lasted till the third day of the week following. Before the formation of the Association the churches had a general meeting for preaching and administering the ordinances, which was held in different places. The first was held at Salem, N. J., in 1688; this was about three months after the Lower Dublin church was constituted. The next was held at the latter church, the next at Philadelphia, and the fourth at Burlington. Others were held in various places. The people with whom the brethren met called the gathering a yearly meeting because it met with them but once a year, but those who attended all the sessions of this body spoke of it as a quarterly meeting. The Association was designed to differ from the yearly meeting chiefly in this, that it was to be body of delegates representing churches, and the yearly meeting had no representative character.
The brethren who constituted the Association came from Lower Dublin (Pennepek), Middletown, Piscataqua, Cohansey, and Welsh Tract. The Philadelphia congregation, though giving its name to the Association, is not represented as a constituent member, because it was regarded as a branch of the Lower Dublin church. Morgan Edwards mentions with evident satisfaction, that though the Association was formed of but five churches, "It had so increased since as to contain thirty-four churches (in 1770), exclusive of those which have [p. 917]
been detached to form another Association." In 1879 the Association had 81 churches, with a membership of nearly 24,000.
I realize this is an old thread, but today I looked up some info on the Philadelphia Association.Ed Pettibone wrote:Ed: In his Baptist Ways published by Judson Press, 2003, Bill Leonard names five Philadelphia area churches that he says founded the "first enduring Baptist Association in America in 1707" as First Church (Phily), Lower Dublin, Piscataway (NJ), Middletown (NJ) and the Welch Track church (Delaware)
I have an ABC Pastor friend, (Bruce Johnson) who disputes the inclusion of FBC Philadelphia and the omission of the Cohansey BC located at Roadstown NJ. The Encyclopedia of New Jersey Published by Rutgers University Press supports Bruce's contention. Bruce once pastored the Cohansey church.
Rvaughn wrote:Ed, I noticed in Baptist Ways that Leonard footnotes Maring's 1964 Baptists in New Jersey as his source. I don't have Maring's book to compare, but I would say it was a mistake to use such a recent source when earlier sources would have been better. You might (or might not) find interesting my review of Leonard's book here:
http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com/2008/01/baptist-ways-opinion.html
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