My favorite Baptist historian may have erred

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: In his Baptist Ways published by Judson Press, 2003, Bill Leonard names five Philadelphia area churches that he says founded the "first enduring Baptist Association in America in 1707" as First Church (Phily), Lower Dublin, Piscataway (NJ), Middletown (NJ) and the Welch Track church (Delaware)

I have an ABC Pastor friend, (Bruce Johnson) who disputes the inclusion of FBC Philadelphia and the omission of the Cohansey BC located at Roadstown NJ. The Encyclopedia of New Jersey Published by Rutgers University Press supports Bruce's contention. Bruce once pastored the Cohansey church.

[Haruo]

I have no idea who got the thing going in 1707, and I'm not at all sure the prior activity in Rhode Island should be so lightly dismissed — though perhaps if you meant "the first enduring Baptist Association of local churches in America" instead of "the first enduring Baptist in America" there might be a case for putting Philly first. I believe it was FBC Philly that, in the 1700s (though for what specific span of years I do not recall) regularly met for worship in common with the Presbyterians. The congregations met separately only when they celebrated the Lord's Supper, performed baptisms, or held their congregational business meetings. The implications of this for the effect of Calvinism on Northern Baptist theological leanings may be worth exploring. BTW I have no certain recollection of where I read about this stuff; Vedder?

[Ed Pettibone]

I have no idea who got the thing going in 1707, and I'm not at all sure the prior activity in Rhode Island should be so lightly dismissed — though perhaps if you meant "the first enduring Baptist Association of local churches in America" instead of "the first enduring Baptist in America" there might be a case for putting Philly first. I believe it was FBC Philly that, in the 1700s (though for what specific span of years I do not recall) regularly met for worship in common with the Presbyterians. The congregations met separately only when they celebrated the Lord's Supper, performed baptisms, or held their congregational business meetings. The implications of this for the effect of Calvinism on Northern Baptist theological leanings may be worth exploring. BTW I have no certain recollection of where I read about this stuff; Vedder?

Ed: Hauro, please note that I have edited my initial post in this thread to credit the Philadelphia Association to be the "first enduring Baptist association in America" as founded in 1707. Leonard's statement is found on p115 at the close of the first full paragraph on the page. The 1707 date comes from line three of the same paragraph.

Bruce Jonson says he understands that First Phily was a mission of the Pennepack BC, now in also in Philadelphia PA, not as a fully constituted Baptist Church at the time of the of the founding of the association 1707. This seems plausible when reading the history of that church I see that FBCP did not seperate from the Pennepack church until 1746, and that from their origin in 1698 till 1746 the shared a Pastor by the name of Rev. Jones. However the meeting at ehich the Association was formed did occur in the FBC building.

it {FBC} began in a small abandoned building known as the Barbadoes Storehouse which it shared with some Presbyterians. Very soon after the Baptists obtained their own meeting place at Anthony Morris’ Brewhouse at the intersection of Water and Dock Streets.

In 1707 the congregation took over the Keithian Quaker Meeting House next to Christ Church Episcopal at Second and Market and in this building the Philadelphia Baptist Association was formed that same year. For the next 24 years the work flourished so that in 1731 the Meeting House was replaced by a large brick building measuring 42 feet by 30 feet and was called LaGrange Place. This in turn was replaced in 1808 by a still larger and more imposing structure. In 1746 the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia was constitutionally separated from the Pennepek Church from which it had sprung in 1698 and had continued to share its minister. The REV. JENKIN JONES then resigned from Pennepek and ministered solely to the Philadelphia Church until his death in1760 at age 74. (His tombstone is in the lower stairwell of the present church.)

[Haruo]

Thanks, Ed. That history doesn't make clear (as did the one I read a long time ago and have forgotten the source of) that while the Baptists and Presbyterians and Baptists shared a roof, the Baptists also routinely joined in the services of the Presbyterians (except, as I noted, when the ordinances or polity were at issue). This presumably made it unnecessary for the Baptist pastor to attend services most of the time (so he could continue to minister full-time, with only occasional trips to Philly, to his New Jersey congregation). I'd be interested to know how long the cohabitation lasted (your source is vague; my sense of long ago is it was more than a year anyway)...

[Ed Pettibone]

Thanks, Ed. That history doesn't make clear (as did the one I read a long time ago and have forgotten the source of) that while the Baptists and Presbyterians and Baptists shared a roof, the Baptists also routinely joined in the services of the Presbyterians (except, as I noted, when the ordinances or polity were at issue). This presumably made it unnecessary for the Baptist pastor to attend services most of the time (so he could continue to minister full-time, with only occasional trips to Philly, to his New Jersey congregation). I'd be interested to know how long the cohabitation lasted (your source is vague; my sense of long ago is it was more than a year anyway)...

Ed: Hauro "that history" which I provided in a block quote, comes from the official web page of the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia. I think It makes quite clear that their founders at "{FBC} began in a small abandoned building known as the Barbadoes Storehouse which it shared with some Presbyterians. Very soon after the Baptists obtained their own meeting place at Anthony Morris’ Brewhouse at the intersection of Water and Dock Streets.'' And yes I would like to know how soon was "very soon" . But I find no mention of the Presbyterians with them in move to "their own building". Nor in the second move in 1707, nor the third move in 1731 but all that time they where still a formal part of the Pennepek an arrangement that continued until some time in 1746. At the rate they seem to have been growing to require these moves I doubt that Rev Jones had left them on their own except for communions and Baptisms. Nor is their any mention of a Presbyterian pastor having been involved. And BTW Vedder in his Short History of the Baptist does does not seem to support your memory, maybe his longer work or some other historian.

[Haruo]

Thanks, Ed. That history doesn't make clear (as did the one I read a long time ago and have forgotten the source of) that while the Baptists and Presbyterians and Baptists shared a roof, the Baptists also routinely joined in the services of the Presbyterians (except, as I noted, when the ordinances or polity were at issue). This presumably made it unnecessary for the Baptist pastor to attend services most of the time (so he could continue to minister full-time, with only occasional trips to Philly, to his New Jersey congregation). I'd be interested to know how long the cohabitation lasted (your source is vague; my sense of long ago is it was more than a year anyway)...

Ed: Hauro "that history" which I provided in a block quote, comes from the official web page of the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia. I think It makes quite clear that their founders "{FBC} began in a small abandoned building known as the Barbadoes Storehouse which it shared with some Presbyterians. Very soon after the Baptists obtained their own meeting place at Anthony Morris’ Brewhouse at the intersection of Water and Dock Streets.

Yes, but "Very soon after", looking back 300 years, may mean "within months" or "by the late 1720s"... and "shared with" may mean "the Presbys met there at 11 AM and the Baptists at 3 PM" or (as I believe was the case) "the Baptists generally attended the service, and listened to the sermon, of the Presbyterian congregation and pastor". Those are the points where I would like specifics on the first and corroboration (or refutation) of my belief on the second.

[Ed Pettibone]

Thanks, Ed. That history doesn't make clear (as did the one I read a long time ago and have forgotten the source of) that while the Baptists and Presbyterians and Baptists shared a roof, the Baptists also routinely joined in the services of the Presbyterians (except, as I noted, when the ordinances or polity were at issue). This presumably made it unnecessary for the Baptist pastor to attend services most of the time (so he could continue to minister full-time, with only occasional trips to Philly, to his New Jersey congregation). I'd be interested to know how long the cohabitation lasted (your source is vague; my sense of long ago is it was more than a year anyway)...

Ed: Hauro "that history" which I provided in a block quote, comes from the official web page of the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia. I think It makes quite clear that their founders "{FBC} began in a small abandoned building known as the Barbadoes Storehouse which it shared with some Presbyterians. Very soon after the Baptists obtained their own meeting place at Anthony Morris’ Brewhouse at the intersection of Water and Dock Streets.

"HAURO : Yes, but "Very soon after", looking back 300 years, may mean "within months" or "by the late 1720s"... and "shared with" may mean "the Presbys met there at 11 AM and the Baptists at 3 PM" or (as I believe was the case) "the Baptists generally attended the service, and listened to the sermon, of the Presbyterian congregation and pastor". Those are the points where I would like specifics on the first and corroboration (or refutation) of my belief on the second.

Ed: Hauro, "that history" which I provided in a block quote, comes from the official web page of the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia. I think It makes quite clear that their founders at "{FBC} began in a small abandoned building known as the Barbadoes Storehouse which it shared with some Presbyterians. Very soon after the Baptists obtained their own meeting place at Anthony Morris’ Brewhouse at the intersection of Water and Dock Streets.'' And yes I would like to know how soon was "very soon" . But I find no mention of the Presbyterians with them in move to "their own building", however soon. Nor in the second move in 1707, nor the third move in 1731 but all that time they where still a formal part of the Pennepek church, an arrangement that continued until some time in 1746. At the rate they seem to have been growing to require these moves, I doubt that Rev Jones had left them on their own except for communions and Baptisms. Nor is their any mention of a Presbyterian pastor having been involved. And BTW Vedder in his Short History of the Baptist does does not seem to support your memory, maybe his longer work, or some other historian. BTW, for the novices, Wikipedia is a very poor source on this one.

[Haruo]

[expunging much prefatory matter; vide supra as needed]

Hauro, "that history" which I provided in a block quote, comes from the official web page of the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia. I think It makes quite clear that their founders at "{FBC} began in a small abandoned building known as the Barbadoes Storehouse which it shared with some Presbyterians. Very soon after the Baptists obtained their own meeting place at Anthony Morris’ Brewhouse at the intersection of Water and Dock Streets.'' And yes I would like to know how soon was "very soon" . But I find no mention of the Presbyterians with them in move to "their own building", however soon. Nor in the second move in 1707, nor the third move in 1731 but all that time they where still a formal part of the Pennepek church, an arrangement that continued until some time in 1746. At the rate they seem to have been growing to require these moves, I doubt that Rev Jones had left them on their own except for communions and Baptisms. Nor is their any mention of a Presbyterian pastor having been involved. And BTW Vedder in his Short History of the Baptist does does not seem to support your memory, maybe his longer work, or some other historian. BTW, for the novices, Wikipedia is a very poor source on this one.

Yes, I wonder where my memory on this topic comes from. It's far in the past, probably at least 20 years ago and certainly antedating Wikipedia , that I read the source I'm (mis?)recalling, but I recall the specific assertion that the Baptists worshipped with the Presbyterians, and only met separately for the special services previously mentioned. May have to wait for the Parousia to figure it out, and by then it may have suffered a diminution in import.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: I do not doubt that you read it somewhere and I do not doubt that it happened in various places including some short period at the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia. Yet in 2013 we have Baptist Churches in our Capital Area Baptist Association here in Upstate NY that share space, worship and staff time with Presbyterians and others with Methodist and some with the UCC. In fact we have a member at Burnthills Baptist who is the Music director at a nearby Presbyterian church and that is where Trudy preached her trial sermon for this church's pulpit committee.

The pastors of such churches for the most part struggle with trying to meld polity and doctrine. I pray for them but do not envy them.

My friend Bruce Johnson still wants to know how the Cohansey Church gets over looked as one of the founding churches of the Philadelphia Association. I wish I had thought about this when I saw Leonard in Greensboro this summer.

[Stephen Fox]

Leonard did a great job in Nov Baps Today with is tribute to the Father of Linda McKinnish Bridges!

[Ed Pettibone]

Leonard did a great job in Nov Baps Today with is tribute to the Father of Linda McKinnish Bridges!

Leonard most often does a great Job that is why I would like to get to the bottom of the question of the proper list of the founding churches of the Philadelphia Association of Baptist in1707.

I found it in the Baptist Encyclopedia of 1881:

[p. 916]

The Philadelphia Baptist Association, was formed on the "twenty-seventh day of the seventh month, on the seventh day of the week," in the year 1707. The meeting lasted till the third day of the week following. Before the formation of the Association the churches had a general meeting for preaching and administering the ordinances, which was held in different places. The first was held at Salem, N. J., in 1688; this was about three months after the Lower Dublin church was constituted. The next was held at the latter church, the next at Philadelphia, and the fourth at Burlington. Others were held in various places. The people with whom the brethren met called the gathering a yearly meeting because it met with them but once a year, but those who attended all the sessions of this body spoke of it as a quarterly meeting. The Association was designed to differ from the yearly meeting chiefly in this, that it was to be body of delegates representing churches, and the yearly meeting had no representative character.

The brethren who constituted the Association came from Lower Dublin (Pennepek), Middletown, Piscataqua, Cohansey, and Welsh Tract. The Philadelphia congregation, though giving its name to the Association, is not represented as a constituent member, because it was regarded as a branch of the Lower Dublin church. Morgan Edwards mentions with evident satisfaction, that though the Association was formed of but five churches, "It had so increased since as to contain thirty-four churches (in 1770), exclusive of those which have [p. 917]
been detached to form another Association." In 1879 the Association had 81 churches, with a membership of nearly 24,000.

[Rvaughn]

Ed: In his Baptist Ways published by Judson Press, 2003, Bill Leonard names five Philadelphia area churches that he says founded the "first enduring Baptist Association in America in 1707" as First Church (Phily), Lower Dublin, Piscataway (NJ), Middletown (NJ) and the Welch Track church (Delaware)

I have an ABC Pastor friend, (Bruce Johnson) who disputes the inclusion of FBC Philadelphia and the omission of the Cohansey BC located at Roadstown NJ. The Encyclopedia of New Jersey Published by Rutgers University Press supports Bruce's contention. Bruce once pastored the Cohansey church.

I realize this is an old thread, but today I looked up some info on the Philadelphia Association.

According to both Minutes of the Philadelphia Baptist Association from A.D. 1707 to A.D. 1807 (A. D. Gillete, editor) and the history of the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia (on their website), the church at Philadelphia was not constituted as a separate church (from Lower Dublin/Pennepeck) until 1746 though they had held a separate meeting (with shared minister) since 1698.

In Samuel Jones "Century Sermon" he lists five churches: "...consisting of but five churches. Lower Dublin, Piscataqua, Middletown, Cohansie and Welsh-Tract..." (Gillette, p. 455)

I would conclude that Bruce Johnson is right and Bill Leonard got it wrong. They were meeting at Philadelphia, but were not a separate church and therefore shouldn't be considered as a founding member.

Regarding oldest "association", oldest continuing association, etc., I would say this. The General Six-Principle Baptist Rhode Island Yearly Meeting was formed circa 1670. Despite calling it a "yearly meeting" rather than an "association", the Six-Principle Baptists in Rhode Island had organized nearly years before the Regular Baptists. It then would be the oldest gathering of Baptists beyond the church level, predating the Philadelphia Association by about 37 years. At the moment I don't remember how long the Six-Principle yearly meeting continued, but I think well up into the late 1900s or early 2000s. The historic Six-Principle Baptists no longer exist, the last two churches having dropped the distinct doctrine and name a few years back. A new body has arisen that took that name, but I don't consider them "real" Six-Principle Baptists.

Anyway, for what it's worth, three years later!

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Thanks to R Vaughn for the conformation of Bruce Johnson's list of the original churches of the Philadelphia Association.

[Sandy]

I'd be curious to see how Leon McBeth covers this in his Baptist Heritage. I'll have to wait until I get back home to read it, I'm in Virginia at the moment.

[Rvaughn]

I have a 1983 report of the General Six-Principle Baptist Conference of Rhode Island in my minute books collection. It lists that meeting as the 313th annual conference. Assuming this counting is done as most associations do, it would have been organized in 1671 (subtract the annual number and then add one). That's 36 years older than the Philadelphia Baptist Association. I don't think, though, that there are any surviving records from that period.

I don't have McBeth's book at hand. On a preview at Google Books I can see that he says "The important Philadelphia Baptist Association...was the first organized Baptist association in America." But he also points out this can be debated and "The question turns upon one's definition of an association..." He (and others as well) mentions that the Philadelphia area Baptist churches met together for fellowship and discussion as early as 1688 (still 17 years later than the Rhode Island Conference), but that the body was not formally organized until 1707. And that is part of his argument against the Rhode Island Yearly -- that it was only a fellowship meeting and not formally organized (not sure I agree, but don't think there is enough evidence to prove it one way or another).

On what I could get hits on in the Google Book preview, I did not find any mention of the names of the churches that organized the Philadelphia Association.

[Rvaughn]

Looked in the McBeth's book this afternoon, and didn't find that he directly commented on the churches in the formation of the Philadelphia Baptist Association (could have missed it). Christian says this, "The brethren who constituted the association came from Lower Dublin (Pennepeck), Middletown, Piscataqua, Cohansey, and Welsh Tract. The Philadelphia congregation, though giving its name to the association, is not represented as a constituent member, because it was regarded as a branch of the Lower Dublin church." (Vol. 2. p. 149)

[Rvaughn]

Ed, I noticed in Baptist Ways that Leonard footnotes Maring's 1964 Baptists in New Jersey as his source. I don't have Maring's book to compare, but I would say it was a mistake to use such a recent source when earlier sources would have been better. You might (or might not) find interesting my review of Leonard's book here:
http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com/2008/01/baptist-ways-opinion.html

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed, I noticed in Baptist Ways that Leonard footnotes Maring's 1964 Baptists in New Jersey as his source. I don't have Maring's book to compare, but I would say it was a mistake to use such a recent source when earlier sources would have been better. You might (or might not) find interesting my review of Leonard's book here:
http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com/2008/01/baptist-ways-opinion.html

Ed: R.L. I do find your review of Leonard's Baptist Ways interesting, and well written. I will however quibble with your suggestion that in Baptist Ways Leonard over reports the activity of women possibly to "make up" for a lack of coverage by prior writers of Baptist History. I feel Leonard was/is simply more sensitive to the entries about women in much of the source materials, such as church minutes, and letters between pastors as well as letter between members. I am not sure but I think he may have developed this sensitivity, due to the heavy focus on the place of women in ministry at the time he was seminary student and more so about the same time he began being published.

Unfortunately all of my Baptist History books including a half dozen by Leonard are already in storage, so I am unable to quote him in support of my position.

Also R.L, I am also curious as to why, since you chose to use a title with his Leonard's name, you use "Mr." rather than Dr. ?

BTW, if you would like to contact me; My Email is Pettibonete@Gmail.com

[Rvaughn]

Thanks, Ed, for sharing your perspective. I wrote that 8 years ago, so I don't know if I would see some of that differently if I read it now. It's hard to go back and even remember things that long ago!

As to why I chose to use "Mr." rather than "Dr." I don't specifically remember anything about that either. But I hardly ever, if ever, refer to anyone as "Dr" when writing in a religious context.

Thanks for the Email. I'll send you a note about the CBF and NBC programs.