Fascinating Patterson Comment

[William Thornton]

Dave offers an example where there may be a legitimate case, contra PP's advice.

[Sandy]

I think that employment covenants between pastors and the churches which call them are good things to have. However, most churches take full advantage of all of the benefits accorded to them with regard to tax exemptions, property ownership, insurance regulations, employment regulations, by pleading the separation of church and state, and religious liberty. Making a covenant agreement in the calling of a pastor seems to be asking for the government to intrude, while being asked to stay out of other business based on church-state separation. I don't think the court system and the state's legal authority is the place for a minister to appeal in order to hold a church accountable.

[Haruo]

But surely once a pastor has extricated herself from a crocodilian-infested quagmire with the loss of only one limb and some hair, she ought to have both the right and the duty to warn others who may see the chamber of horrors as merely a Spirit-sent job opportunity.

[Dave Roberts]

[Stephen Fox]

Moyers is not the world of Unbelief. But Jesse Helms, Patterson and Pressler were the world of the Birch Society, and now the underbelly of the Tea Party and Koch Brothers. See NPR today interview on the civil war in the GOP to see what Pressler and the recon world of Ted Cruz have wrought.

We are all limited by our experience but Sandy in particular seems fogged in his analysis of what the takeover was about. Dave Roberts consistently has a wise and virtuous though not naïve perspective on these matters when they flare up on this board.

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

I have been involved with the Ministering to Ministers Foundation for the past five years. One of their resources to assist ministers in the face of unjust (and even illegal) treatment of ministers is the service of volunteering attorneys who can often negotiate with churches to protect ministers from these actions. This voluntary counsel can then negotiate for or assist with a minister's dealings with the congregation. They have been able to assist in negotiating termination agreements and sabbaticals from which ministers do not return and also spell out who can speak about these things to future congregations that may inquire about a minister's history. This also can provide assistance for the minister in regaining a sense of health and hope in spite of the problems. Check their website.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Dave does MTM serve pastors out side of Virginia? Wish had known of this earlier, BHBC is hosting a training session for members of the Regional Enhancement Team today. We are just in the talking stages at this time. I hope to see it move in the direction of MTM. St present we are primarily involved in assisting churches in Pastoral search,

BTW you didn't give the URL but I looked it up. http://www.mtmfoundation.org/

[Dave Roberts]

[Sandy]

That's a great service. Expanding the kind of things that they do might be something to consider, such as keeping a registry of churches and their record when it comes to their pastor and staff. Having a place where you could look up a church and find out how many pastors they've had, how many have been dismissed, or even how many have had frequent resignations. For Baptists in particular, this would be valuable information, since there's no denominational organization in place which handles that sort of thing. You can call a director of missions, or other pastors in the area, but sometimes they are reluctant to do or say anything that leaves a negative impression.

When I graduated from Southwestern, I took their placement office's advisory session. They were quite helpful in providing advice like finding out about previous pastors and staff, asking them to provide a reference to you for the church. One of the things they said was to ask the search committee to provide you with the contact information of their former staff members or pastor, depending on what you were seeking. I only had one church situation in which I had to deal with the established power structure and self-appointed leadership related to keeping my position, and that was before I went through the seminary's program. I guess they still do that, and it would be a good idea for all of them to prepare their students for what they might face. I did have one DOM in Kentucky who told me that a church that was interested in me had a couple of deacons who were hard on ministerial staff, and a pastor who used staff members as scapegoats to keep his own job. That was a red flag. That should happen more often.

[Dave Roberts]

One of the things I have learned over the last 40 years is that state and associational workers often are not completely honest about churches or are sadly uninformed about the problems in many congregations. It would seem that because the church is the one contributing to the state or associational worker's organization, they often feel a duty to protect churches rather than being honest about what is going on there. Perhaps there is no cure for it, but there are many well-hidden secrets about church-minister relations that often require careful research, and then they may not be visible. Because MTM works across denominational lines, it would not be an ideal organization to maintain lists of troubled churches, but state and local organizations could, if they were willing to risk some funding.

[Dave Roberts]

Another response to Patterson's statement has been reported today.

http://www.abpnews.com/culture/social-i ... mljwvksl8E

If laws are violated, and the lid is placed over it, then the failure to report is criminal behavior under the laws of many states.

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

Sandy, I don't know if you have listened to the chapel address. I took the time to go back and listen to see if there was injustice toward Patterson. In the address, he stressed that God will eventually set things right and his justice is sure. He even used the line, "if you are abused." Now whether he intended that to be about sexual abuse or not, I don't know. It may just be typical Patterson hyperbole. However, if I were an child or teen abused by someone in power in the church and heard him say, "You don't take what happens in church before the law," I doubt I would ever return to the church that denied me justice here trusting only that God would set it right in the future. After listening to the address, I understand the upset. Patterson created his own storm by his word choice, especially by using the word "abused." Listen to the address from the perspective of a victim and see what you would say.

[Dave Roberts]

In listening more to the address, Patterson also used the word "defrauded." I wonder if he intended for churches who have experienced embezzlements not to report these to legal authorities. This was also in his list of things that should not go outside the church. I would like for someone else to listen and see if they heard what I am hearing.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Dave Roberts]

[Dave Roberts]

Christa Brown, a member of this forum, has now weighed in also with a response to the SWBTS President's chapel sermon.

[Sandy]

Boy, ABP is sure jumping on this to drag in everyone they can, and yet, they've not bothered, as far as I can tell, to confirm their speculation about what he meant in his chapel address. I listened to it, and I don't think there is enough context to jump to the conclusions that have been drawn. I have a lot of respect for Christa Brown, but I think she is being used here to generate unwarranted and unverified criticism of Patterson, at ABP's instigation. This is shoddy journalism at its best, but I don't think it rises to that level. It's a mean spirited hack job, especially since it is clear that no attempt has been made to be fair to Patterson, or get his clarification and perspective. That nullifies any criticism of Baptist Press, as well as claims from CBF supporters that they are more than just the Anti-SBC.

[William Thornton]

[Sandy]

It's a stretch to take Patterson's use of the term "abused," and apply it this way. If you listen to the message, and to that statement, and what is around it, he's not talking about sexually abusive clergy.

And if you've read or heard of Christa Brown, and what she is advocating for Southern Baptists to do with clergy accountability regarding abuse cases, it is not inconsistent with what Patterson is saying. She's not suggesting that churches air their dirty laundry in front of secular authority. ABP is grasping at straws in pulling this out and trying to use it to bludgeon Patterson. But that's so typical of them.

I guess, with the money drying up like a creek in the desert, there's not much for ABP to write about when it comes to CBF...Maybe they could do a piece on financially strapped Christian fellowships and their creative financing of airline commutes for the executive director.

[William Thornton]

Consider me to see this differently from my religiously con colleague, Sandy. ABP seldom messes with the SBC these days, budget woes or not, and ABP has, properly in my opinion, done extensive reporting on church and clergy sex abuse cases. Patterson's comments were a rather weak but still legitimate foil for Christa Brown's article.

A better foil would be any of the several cases where due to the autonomy of the local church and the lack of any central SBC sex abuse registry, SBC clergy have freely moved from church-to-church in ministry positions while having a background but not a conviction of sex abuse.

[Dave Roberts]

Having listened to the address, Patterson left a lot of his statements open to interpretation. He needs to clarify what he meant. It is not obvious from the address how he intended it to be applied. My guess is he was aiming at social media and other forums, but that simply isn't all that clear. A clarification of intent would help his case.

[Sandy]

[William Thornton]

So far as I am aware, the CBF does not have their own clergy sex abuse register although the Alabama CBF does have one for their state. The Alabama CBF is the only state that has a procedure for churches reporting alleged abuse by an Alabama CBF minister. I haven't checked all the states with CBF organizations.

ABP has done about all they can to be proactive on this issue. It's up to the various state and national entities to take action.