Homeschooling and the SBC

[William Thornton]

The SBC Annual meeting topic morphed into a discussion of schools and homeschooling. I started a new topic and copied the last two posts here:

Ed: Note the Shortt & Pickney resolution of 2004 SB Convention mentioned above Failed. So it seems the bulk of the messengers at that Convention where not overly impressed with Pickney and Shortt's arguments any more than I was when sandy re-posted them in this forum. And this was 12 years after the take over crowed within the SBC has declared victory.

Sandy why in the world did you include those two in your list of authorities on this subject?
________________________

Sandy: Pinckney and Shortt's resolution was presented in 2004. Southern Baptists were latecomers to the Christian school movement, and in 2004, about 3% of the churches in the convention had the day schools that would have been the recipients of students leaving the public system. Today, about 15% of SBC churches have days schools, there is an organization, the Southern Baptist Association of Christian Schools, and there is a growing trend among Southern Baptists to home educate or to place their children in a Christian school.

You can say what you want about the individuals, just see if you can challenge their assertions with facts. Well done research is still accurate, regardless of the personality or the politics of the person who does it.

[William Thornton]

[Dave Roberts]

William, I want to pick up a quote I put in the other thread:

There are certainly situations where the public schools are failing and parents have to supplement what is offered in order for their children to get a well-rounded and adequate education. The problems I see in education are not the exaggerated influences of teachers' unions and bureaucratic efforts that drain away the chances for children to get an education. I see massive inequalities where rich school districts in a state have double the "per-pupil expenditure" that poorer systems have. I also see minorities being abandoned to the public schools while those who can afford to send their children to private schools often do so. My sense of Christian duty is not to some "one size fits all" system that poorly serves or regiments education for all children. It is certainly not to all the varied philosophies that underlie the approaches to education. It is rather my concern to fulfill the teachings of Jesus "Inasmuch as you have done it for the least of these, you did it to me." I see Christ in the underprivileged children abandoned in public education while Christians can rush to private and home-schooling experiences all the while bellyaching about being taxed to support schools their kids don't attend and complaining that they can't get money from the government for their school choices.

Efforts to make teachers accountable through state testing and "No Child Left Behind" have destroyed creativity, individually tailored learning, and the freedom to experiment and improve on education. In the name of that mandate, we have schools simply teaching the state tests and little else. The constant attacks on teaching as a profession have caused many of the best teachers to change careers or take early retirement. My area is filled with young teachers who are getting forgiveness for some of their educational loans by teaching five years in an under-resourced school system.

[William Thornton]

Dave, watching the dollars is not a good measure. Here in GA one of the worst school districts gets about double the per pupil expenditure as does one of the best. We could have dueling graphs over all this but there are many factors that contribute to a good or to a poor system - unions, bad management, the educracy, poor teachers.

You are aware, I take it, that additional educational degrees are mainly a tool for pay raises rather than better teaching or pupil performance.

On homeschooling and church schools, my view is that, absent appallingly bad outcomes, parents should have choice and not be criticized for choosing either for their own kids. The gummit may say to a family, "We will provide your kids with an education. Here's your school. Take it or leave it." but I am grateful that a family can say, "Thanks. We will leave it."

There are some militant voices on HS. Mine is not one. Let each family make their choice.

[Dave Roberts]

William, I must live in a different world from some of you. First, there are no teachers unions in VA that function in collective bargaining for teachers. State law does not allow it.

Second, I see much of the home school and private education movement in my area as an effort to leave the public schools solely to African-Americans who can be disposable in the eyes of many. For example, the local high school is now 90% African-American. It has become the dumping ground for children not expected to make it.

Third, in much of my area, experienced teachers cannot get jobs. Schools cannot afford them. Instead, new teachers are hired annually straight from college because they are cheaper. Some prove to be excellent teachers, but as soon as they get released from their student debt for teaching five years in a "under-resourced school system," many of them move to more lucrative systems where teacher pay is twice what it is in my area.

Fourth, I have no objection to either home schooling or private schooling, as long as it meets or exceeds the standards for public education. William, what I object to is when the government wants to take from my pocket and hand a voucher to a family who are making a choice not to involve themselves in public education. Catholics have long maintained their own schools without public funds. Indeed, Baptists and most Protestants have stringently objected to any public support for their schools. Why should Baptists now expect the government to hand us vouchers for private education?

[Sandy]

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

[Tim Bonney]

Sandy we have a fundamental disagreement about education in the US. I am a strong believer in the value of publicly provided education for all the citizens of the United States. I believe that the strength of our nation in the past was found in the fact that we educate everyone in our society no matter what the social and economic station. We are not doing nearly as well with this as we used to in part because support for public education and the purpose behind it has been forgotten or ignored by many.

I also agree that public schools have problems that are not just financial but also systematic needing long term work.

The idea of replacing public education for private education, for those who can afford it, it certainly an option. But that still does not remove our responsibility to provide public action for every US citizen.

It is my opinion that education of our children divided up by faith group rather than as an activity of the whole society can contribute to our national divisions and our lack of understanding of each other's views and perspectives.

When Christians only hang with other Christians, only go to school with other Christians (even other Christians of their same tribe) then what we end up with is little social enclaves of people who don't understand what others believe, how they think, or how they live because they've isolated themselves from the rest of society. In most cases, at the elementary and secondary level, I don't think it is particularly healthy.

The homeschooling I've seen is a really mixed bag. I've seen some very educated parents teaching their children and some real yahoos who couldn't get out of high school themselves. I've seen persons homeschool entirely to prevent their children from being exposed to viewpoints they don't disagree with naively believing that their kids as adults will be better prepared without that exposure.

As you can tell, I'm not fan of sectarian education and I'm a supporter of public education. And yes, as has been noticed by William, a lot of us pastors have spouses that are teachers. Many members of my church are school teachers. With all the Christians teaching in public schools around us your attack on them as "anti-Christian" doesn't just ring as untrue. It rings as completely biased and out of touch.

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

Out of curiosity, Sandy, what is the cost for a secondary student in your system?

[ET]

One solution working in Africa: private, for-profit schools. A book on the issue:

, James Tooley.

[Sandy]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

[Sandy]

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

[Dave Roberts]

Actually, there are many Christian understandings of what "creation ex nihilo" means. The Catholic Church, until well after Galileo, taught that the earth was created first and then the sun, moon and stars which all revolved around the earth. In "The Fundamentals" pamphlets of the early 1900's, the emphasis was on a seven-day literal creation. Langdon Gilkey who wrote the definitive theology back in the 1960's spoke of periods and allowed for a much longer history. The Jesuit paleontologist, Pierre Tielhard de Chardin spoke of quantum leaps in an evolutionary process moving in his understanding toward the Omega Point. Francis Collins (Director of the Human Genome Project) and Paul Gibberson have written in terms of evolution through Bio-Logos. There are young earth creationists who say that fossils are God's way of testing our faith by planting what seems to contradict young earth creationism. All of these have been considered orthodox Christians by one or more groups. Sandy, could a disciple of Tielhard or of Collins and Gibberson be considered orthodox enough to teach in your school? Why or why not?

[Sandy]

[Tim Bonney]

OK, Sandy thank you for being a little more specific.

I see three items then that you are objecting too.

1. Creationism is not taught in public schools and that is therefore anti-Christian.

You reasoning seems to be that evolution is taught in public schools. You continue that if you believe in evolution that you cannot believe in an all knowing, all powerful, all present God. I don't know how you get to this conclusion because it is a wide leap of logic. I believe in theistic evolution myself and see no problem with believing in scientific evolutionary process and the existence of a creator God.

You seem to think that all Christians would just assume that it is a good idea or necessary to teach creationism in the public schools. But my Church, the UMC, is on record opposing the teaching of "Intelligent Design" in public schools as an infringement on religious rights by choosing to teach a specifically religious viewpoint in public institutions. I could quote the resolution to you if you'd like. But the point is that this is not the view of all Christians by any means.

2. Secular Humanism

As you describe secular humanism I do not believe that is being taught in public schools or that public schools have the goal of teaching secular humanism. In fact I know way too many Christian school teachers, Christian administrators, Christian School Board members, and Christian PTA leaders who are deeply involved in the local public schools to believe any such there.

Here in Sioux City several United Methodist Churches, including my own, work closely with local elementary schools in aid to the poor through food assistance and providing school supplies and clothing. Members of my own church help as class room mentors. Secular humanism isn't being taught in any school I've had a connection with or that my wife has taught in.

3. Christians have to hate gay people and public schools don't teach that effectively any more.

Yes, I know, you won't like the way I've titled the above. But what you are telling me is that we need private Christian schools so that Christian kids can still be taught that gay people are evil, bad, sinful, and hell bound. You'll get no sympathy from me here. It isn't "moral relativism." There is no non-religious reason to treat gay people in any other way than as equal citizens in an equal society. It takes a religion to single them out and make them into lepers.

So to sum it up you seem to be arguing that, we need private Christian schools to allow wealthy white Evangelical Christian folk to get their kids out of integrated public schools so that they can make sure their kids believe in creationism and that gay people are horrible sinners. Boy, great selling points.

Is it at all possible Sandy that you could sell the values of a Christian school without public school bashing? Or is it necessary to the survival to Christian schools to make sure the public school system is painted as evil? You'd not have a vested interest in that would you?