Global Warming Thread XV

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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby KeithE » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:32 am

Please read Rocky on Climate Change

One key understanding from the above (color emphasis mine):

Rocky Anderson believes the political debate over climate science is a deliberate distraction from responsible action – a distraction encouraged and supported by individuals and corporations with a vested interest in prolonging the nation’s dependence on fossil energy. Climate change is neither a political nor an ideological issue; it is a risk-management issue. The American people understand this, because we manage risks every day, insuring our homes against fire, our health against catastrophic illness and our vehicles against accidents – all events we hope will not occur but whose possibility we must acknowledge.


Climate change (droughts, hurricane magnitude, extreme storms, floods, heat waves) and many other bad effects of global warming (water supply reduction, wildfires, acidification of oceans, loss of plankton-bottom of food chain in the oceans, loss of species) are more than a possibility, they are with as today. As for the future of our grandkids, read 100 effects of Global warming (page through all of it, it is more than just French wine).

The cost of mitigation through transition to clean energy sources (~1% of GDP by 2100) is probably less than the cost of business-as-usual (1.84% of GDP by 2100 for just 4 effects). And yes I know these costs are swags with plenty of uncertainty (Stern says the cost of mitigation can range from -1% to 3.5% with +1% most likely adequate to maintain life as we know it). But prudence say we buy insurance especially since investing in those mitigation (clean energy sources) costs can fuel an economic recovery (see clean energy topic)..
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby David Flick » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:07 am

KeithE wrote:Please read Rocky on Climate Change

One key understanding from the above (color emphasis mine):

Rocky Anderson believes the political debate over climate science is a deliberate distraction from responsible action – a distraction encouraged and supported by individuals and corporations with a vested interest in prolonging the nation’s dependence on fossil energy. Climate change is neither a political nor an ideological issue; it is a risk-management issue. The American people understand this, because we manage risks every day, insuring our homes against fire, our health against catastrophic illness and our vehicles against accidents – all events we hope will not occur but whose possibility we must acknowledge.
    Nonsense. I am comforted by the fact that Anderson will never be President. Never.

1Climate change (droughts, hurricane magnitude, extreme storms, floods, heat waves) and many other bad effects of global warming (water supply reduction, wildfires, acidification of oceans, loss of plankton-bottom of food chain in the oceans, loss of species) are more than a possibility, they are with as today. 2As for the future of our grandkids, read 100 effects of Global warming (page through all of it, it is more than just French wine).
    1) False... There is no empirical evidence that supports the notion that climate change (global warming) is causing an increase of severe weather events. (Source #1, Source #2, Source #3, Source #4, Source #5, Source #6) First, the notion that droughts, hurricane magnitude, extreme storms, floods, etc. are caused by climate change or global warming is a myth. Secondly, the fact of the matter is that there has been no global warming since 1998 (some 15 years ago). So the idea that all extreme weather events were caused by climate change or global warming is false. You can't blame the extreme weather events that occurred over the past 15 years on something that doesn't exist. Third, Extreme weather events are not unusual. Extreme weather events occur somewhere on the globe every year. Extreme weather events have occurred since the beginning of recorded time. The number and severity of hurricanes have not increased in recent years. Certainly not in the last 15 years.

    2) The future of our grandchildren is not in jeopardy from climate change or global warming. Not at all. The future of our grandchildren is more in jeopardy, by far, from the massive, irresponsible spending of the Obama administration. As for the article you cited (100 effects of Global warming), that is pure nonsense. Not a single one of the Chicken Little predictions will affect the welbeing of our grandchildren. They're all false and nonsensical.

The cost of mitigation through transition to clean energy sources (~1% of GDP by 2100) is probably less than the cost of business-as-usual (1.84% of GDP by 2100 for just 4 effects). And yes I know these costs are swags with plenty of uncertainty (Stern says the cost of mitigation can range from -1% to 3.5% with +1% most likely adequate to maintain life as we know it). But prudence say we buy insurance especially since investing in those mitigation (clean energy sources) costs can fuel an economic recovery (see clean energy topic)..
    Mitigation of what, pray tell? Inasmuch as climate change is beyond human control, there's no way that mitigation can occur. You can't mitigate something beyond human control. All of the clean (renewable) energy sources are notoriously expensive, inefficient and unreliable. They must be subsidized at great cost to the government. Furthermore, they must be backed up by energy from fossil fuels. When the wind doesn't blow, cheaper energy by fossil fuels must be called in. When the sun doesn't shine, cheaper energy by fossil fuels must be called in. Biofuels are another story. Biofuels are dirtier than fossil fuels and don't do a thing to reduce CO2. But since CO2 doesn't drive climate change, it's senseless to reduce it. There may be a day when technological advance delivers efficient biofuels. Just as there may be a day when wind and solar plants can deliver power at a low cost, reliably and in the quantities required to make a big contribution to our energy needs. At the moment, neither biofuels nor renewables are anywhere near efficient enough to replace fossil fuels. Pretending otherwise and throwing huge amounts of subsidy at technologies that just aren't ready for the big time is a ruinously bad idea. There will not be in our lifetime a complete transition from fossil fuel energy to renewable energy sources.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby KeithE » Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:23 am

You do not deserve a response or even a reading.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby David Flick » Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:30 am

KeithE wrote:You do not deserve a response or even a reading.

You are free to neither read nor respond to anything I post. No one compels you to do either... :)
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby Gene Scarborough » Wed Apr 25, 2012 5:58 am

New article regarding Evangelicals and Global Warming:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/evangelicals-coming-around-to-evidence-for-global-warning-professor-says-73635/

Mark McReynolds, assistant professor of Environmental Science at Biola University, said, "Evangelicals, like the rest of our society, are coming around to the real evidence of global climate change. It is a big, complicated topic, with many implications for us in the U.S."

"Climate scientists are in near unanimity that the evidence speaks loudly for human-caused climate change and the general public is slowly understanding the issue and its implications."


The depth and detail of the discussion thus far shows how hard it is to get a definitive answer on this one. I thought this article gives an overview from an Evangelical perspective :)
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby ET » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:22 pm

Flick, have you seen this video that has gone viral lately?

Earth Day: 'If I Wanted America to Fail...'

Devastating.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby David Flick » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:17 am

ET wrote:Flick, have you seen this video that has gone viral lately?

Earth Day: 'If I Wanted America to Fail...'

Devastating.

No, I had not seen the video. I agree, it's devastatingly true. If the alarmist crowd and the radical environmentalists succeed with their delusional message of manmade global warming & climate change, America's failure is certain. No doubt about it.

There's hope, however, because it's becoming increasingly clear that their message is false. The false prophets of climate change gloom and doom are losing the battle. Conclusion: Virtually none of the outlandish prophetic utterances from prophets of gloom and doom have come true (i.e. Al Gore, James Hansen, Phil Jones, Michael Mann et. al.).
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby KeithE » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:08 am

David Flick wrote:
ET wrote:Flick, have you seen this video that has gone viral lately?

Earth Day: 'If I Wanted America to Fail...'

Devastating.

No, I had not seen the video. I agree, it's devastatingly true. If the alarmist crowd and the radical environmentalists succeed with their delusional message of manmade global warming & climate change, America's failure is certain. No doubt about it.

There's hope, however, because it's becoming increasingly clear that their message is false. The false prophets of climate change gloom and doom are losing the battle. Conclusion: Virtually none of the outlandish prophetic utterances from prophets of gloom and doom have come true (i.e. Al Gore, James Hansen, Phil Jones, Michael Mann et. al.).


Just to take on David’s first ridiculous article about sea level rise where Nils-Axel Mörner claims:
"the sea is not rising," he says. "It hasn't risen in 50 years."


Image
Image

Sure looks like the DATA has risen in the last 50 years in both plots. Note the tidal gauge data agrees with the satellite altimetry data that the sea level are rising at about 2-3 mm/year.

Also from the article:
The reason why Dr Mörner, formerly a Stockholm professor, is so certain that these claims about sea level rise are 100 per cent wrong is that they are all based on computer model predictions


That’s historical DATA in the plots above. The article shows no DATA just unsupported claims.

Read more about sea level rise past and future here where it can be seen that recent studies project 3x times that projected in the 2007 IPCC (AR4)
Image

As for consequences even at a low sea level rise by 2100 of 50cm = 0.5m read the effects on Australia
"Our study centered on Australia showed that coastal flooding events that today we expect only once every hundred years will happen several times a year by 2100", says John Church.

and worldwide
The impacts of sea level rise - even in the lower ranges of the current predictions - looks to be severe. Approximately ten percent of the worlds population - 600 million people - live in low lying areas in danger of being flooded.

more details here.

And please note as I have repeatedly pointed out that Al Gore did not project a 7m sea level rise by 2100. He projected a 7m sea level rise if either the Greenland or West Antarctica Ice Shelf were to entirely melt at some point in the future.

I’ll resist replying to David’s other articles as well as ET’s You Tube except to say the You Tube:
- total neglects of the cost of "Business as Usual” extreme weather we are already experiencing.
- fails to see the great potential for renewable energy jobs and value to America’s economic recovery caused in the first place by deregulation it promotes.
- has not exactly gone viral - it has had 1097 views as of 4/26 7:00 am CDT.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby ET » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:16 pm

KeithE wrote:I’ll resist replying to David’s other articles as well as ET’s You Tube except to say the You Tube:
- total neglects of the cost of "Business as Usual” extreme weather we are already experiencing.
- fails to see the great potential for renewable energy jobs and value to America’s economic recovery caused in the first place by deregulation it promotes.
- has not exactly gone viral - it has had 1097 views as of 4/26 7:00 am CDT.

Interesting thing happened around here (Memphis) a couple of weeks ago. A couple of solar farms had official openings. One of them is the West Tennessee Solar Farm, built on land on which I used to hunt and upon which corn and cotton used to be grown.

A TVA rep was quoted as saying, "We are really viewing a field of dreams." Oh, how right she was....between these two solar installations, they will generate 6 MW of electricity per YEAR. The average power consumption for the Memphis area is 15,000 MW per DAY. The record consumption is 3533 MW per HOUR on August 15, 2007.

The two installations consume approximately 35 acres of land to provide 0.017 MW of the 15,000 MW needed on average per day. So do the math. To provide 10% of the Memphis average daily energy, by my calculations, an area of 3.088,235 acres, or 4,825 square MILES (a section of land 69 miles long on each side) would be needed. (1500/.017)x35=3,088,235

To provide 100% of Memphis power, the area required would be 48,253 square MILES. The land area of the state of Tennessee is 42,169 square miles. If we wave our magic green-fantasy wand and double or triple the efficiency overnight, we still consume most of the state just to provide power to one metro are of the state.

Truly I hope I'm overlooking some considerations here.

And just what are the "renewable energy jobs" so cherished by people such as yourself? "Solar Panel Efficiency Engineer"....using windex and a squeegee to clean bird poop off the solar panels?

The views of the video are 1,124,359 as of 4/26, not 1047.
Last edited by ET on Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby KeithE » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:12 am

ET wrote:
KeithE wrote:I’ll resist replying to David’s other articles as well as ET’s You Tube except to say the You Tube:
- total neglects of the cost of "Business as Usual” extreme weather we are already experiencing.
- fails to see the great potential for renewable energy jobs and value to America’s economic recovery caused in the first place by deregulation it promotes.
- has not exactly gone viral - it has had 1097 views as of 4/26 7:00 am CDT.

Interesting thing happened around here (Memphis) a couple of weeks ago. A couple of solar farms had official openings. One of them is the [url]West Tennessee Solar Farm[/url], built on land on which I used to hunt and upon which corn and cotton used to be grown.

A TVA rep was quoted as saying, "We are really viewing a field of dreams." Oh, how right she was....between these two solar installations, they will generate 6 MW of electricity per YEAR. The average power consumption for the Memphis area is 15,000 MW per DAY. The record consumption is 3533 MW per HOUR on August 15, 2007.

The two installations consume approximately 35 acres of land to provide 0.017 MW of the 15,000 MW needed on average per day. So do the math. To provide 10% of the Memphis average daily energy, by my calculations, an area of 3.088,235 acres, or 4,825 square MILES (a section of land 69 miles long on each side) would be needed. (1500/.017)x35=3,088,235

To provide 100% of Memphis power, the area required would be 48,253 square MILES. The land area of the state of Tennessee is 42,169 square miles. If we wave our magic green-fantasy wand and double or triple the efficiency overnight, we still consume most of the state just to provide power to one metro are of the state.

Truly I hope I'm overlooking some considerations here.

And just what are the "renewable energy jobs" so cherished by people such as yourself? "Solar Panel Efficiency Engineer"....using windex and a squeegee to clean bird poop off the solar panels?

The views of the video are 1,124,359 as of 4/26, not 1047.

ET, you are right about the number of views. I assumed the number at the bottom right of the your tube screen was # of views but that was apparently the # of 1000 views (if you look to the total views under each You Tube at the right.

But the rest of your calculations are in massive error. You have forgotten basic energy units from your HS Freshman General Science class. When you say "Memphis uses 15,000 MW per day" that is nonsense (unit-wise). 1 Watt = 1 Joule/sec. So a 15,000 MW/day = 15,000 MJ/sec/day (energy per [time unit squared] like an energy acceleration). That is nonsense. In common energy parlance, Memphis may use an average of 15,000 MW on a typical day (I do not know), but it cannot be "15,000 MW per day” as you say. So show me the source of that data (actual wording and numbers) because you are obviously messing up with the units.

Now the 5 MW (the quoted power from the West Tennessee Solar Farm) is an energy rate not an energy acceleration. And the claim, which I have no reason doubt, is that it powers 500 standard houses at the same time it offsets 250 tons of coal/month.
The Solar Farm’s annual generation of 5 megawatts is enough to power 500 homes and offset 250 tons of coal per month.

A typical house uses 14,000 KW-Hrs / Year which equals 0.0016 MW/house (14MW-Hrs/(365x24 hours in a year)). So, 5KW (w/o any coal offsets) powers 3125 “typical” houses (5/.0016) in place of the advertised 500 houses + 250 tons of coal/month.

Now this solar farm occupies 25 acres (and the picture shows that acreage is hardly packed with solar panels). 3125 houses on a smallish 1/4 acre lot is 781 acres. To devote 25 acres of land to power a 781 acre plat of homes is not at all unreasonable especially since rooftops are typically used. You're right that peak usage might be a problem if energy storage were not available. But it is available on all solar units with some efficiency loss. In fact, so much energy is typically stored with rooftop units, that energy is sold back to the grid at prices such as 7 cents a kW-Hr (TVA’s rate). So it really is not necessary to use additional land for solar collectors at least for houses. Some high intensity industry may however need acreage for solar power.

Do you really think there would be any solar power industry at all, if it took most of Tennessee to power one metro area of Tennessee???

As for the economics of buying a unit for a resident (for my house it would have cost $30,000), it is not too attractive yet. Typically has a 10-20 years break even point depending roof inclination, pointing and tree canopy. But prices are coming down while electric utilities based primarily on high CO2 emitting, coal-fired electric plants are going up.

No, ET, your numbers are way off; the mathematical/engineering equivalent of the first comment to your You Tube which I’ll quote because it is a classic out-of-control screed.
Anyone but Tree Hugging Marxist Loving Crying Out Loud Snot Nosed Aggressive Progressive Liberal Left Wing Pin Head Brain Dead Commie Puke understands clearly what this man is saying.

The You Tube itself is similar - more calmly given, but equally out-of-control, unsubstantiated words. Not one bit of facts or DATA just unsupported proclamations aimed at those that have already bought the anti-environmental, free-market-at-any-cost koolaid.

David, I may or may not get to responding to your other links, but they are all refutable - some do not even make the point that you give in your link title- check it out.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby KeithE » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:12 pm

ET, you have not replied to my straightening out your calculations which led to such a ridiculous claim that powering Memphis would require most of the acreage of Tennessee.

Solar energy’s time has come. It is viable now for many applications and improving as this article explains, giving facts.
Viability of Solar Improving
I do not like the title with the word “tipping point “ in it. The cost of solar technology / deployment has steadily come down not a sudden breakthrough.

Image

It is now on par with coal-fired electric plants (w/o virtually no ghg emissions) for many applications.

Image
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby David Flick » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:14 am

David Flick wrote:.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Image
.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
The Death of the Mythical Global Warming Tipping Point

The Global Warming Tipping Point is Dead. Actually, it never lived, but the CAGW alarmist believed it was alive. The earliest known reference to a global warming "tipping point" appeared 2005 in an article in the Guardian written by Ian Sample. In 2006, Deborah Zabarenko, a writer for Reuters wrote an alarming article about GW tipping points. In August of 2008, Karin Kloosterman posited that a climate change tipping point would appear within 100 Months. In July of 2006, the alarmist website, RealClimate.Org posted an article about "Runaway tipping points of no return."

In 2007, James Hansen, the father of global warming alarmism, got into the act by writing an article which delineated the gorey details of global warming tipping points. Hansen's article set the global warming alarmism world on fire. It wasn't long before every alarmist and his brother was sallying forth with alarming articles about various and sundry global warming tipping points. From 2007 to 2010, thousands of articles about global warming tipping points appeared on the internet. In February of 2007, I began collecting articles about global warming tipping points. I created a webpage and posted links to the huge number articles that appeared. I wanted document the length of time the fever pitch of global warming articles would be posted before the scare fizzled and died. Over a period of four years (2007 through 2010), I collected and posted links of these articles. By the middle of 2010, articles about the mythical GW tipping point began to slow to almost nothing.

Late in 2010, very few articles about tipping points appeared on the internet. In December of 2010, I quit collecting and posting links to my website. I ended my research project with a total of 1,505 articles. I haven't posted a link to my website in over a year. One can still google a recent article about the GW tipping points, but for all practical purposes, no one even thinks about the GW tipping points these days. I have concluded from my study, which is admittedly unscientific, that there is no global warming tipping point. Since there has been no global warming over the last 17 years, the notion of a global warming tipping point is impossible. There was never a danger of runaway tipping points of no return. Inasmuch as there is presently no catastrophic global warming/climate change, there is nothing for anyone to fear. There will never in our lifetime be a catastrophic global warming tipping point.

My unscientific study about the mythical "Tipping Point" theory is confirmed by the three following articles":
  1. Tipping Points In Environmentalist Rhetoric: An Unscientific Survey of Nexis
    Rise and fall of the number "Tipping Point" articles on the internet:
      Quote from the article: After June 2002, the news media's use of tipping point in the context of global warming and climate change exploded (reached its own tipping point?). One caveat: naturally there will be some overlap since many articles will mention both climate change and global warming. In any case here are the totals:

      Between June 2002 and June 2005 - CC: 262; GW: 303.

      Between June 2005 and June 2008 - CC: more than 3,000; GW: more than 3,000

      Between June 2008 and June 2011 - CC: more than 3,000; GW: 2903

      Between June 2011 and June 2012 - CC: 1,348; GW; 637

      Of course, the problem with tipping points is that they can never be proven wrong; only right in retrospect. And that, of course, makes citing them a wonderful rhetorical device for doomsayers.

  2. Inconvenient History of Global Warming 'Tipping Points' -- Hours, Days, Months, Years, Millennium -- Earth 'Serially Doomed
      Contains 16 links within the text of the article.
  3. Gore’s (Really) Inconvenient Timing – ‘Consensus’ On Man-Made Global Warming Collapses in 2008
Conclusion: Since there has been no global warming over the last 17 years, the notion of a global warming tipping point is impossible. There was never a danger of runaway tipping points of no return. Inasmuch as there is presently no catastrophic global warming/climate change, there is nothing for anyone to fear. There will never in our lifetime be a catastrophic global warming tipping point.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby KeithE » Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:09 pm

David Flick wrote:Conclusion: Since there has been no global warming over the last 17 years, the notion of a global warming tipping point is impossible. There was never a danger of runaway tipping points of no return. Inasmuch as there is presently no catastrophic global warming/climate change, there is nothing for anyone to fear. There will never in our lifetime be a catastrophic global warming tipping point.


Measured DATA:
Image

This plot is measurements - not “fabricated” and multiply analyzed with the same basic result by at least 4 independent data analysts.

David, seventeen (17) years ago was 1995. You we see that the surface air temp has risen 0.25C since then (look at the redlines since they are smoothed data taking out noise). That is not “no global warming” especially since it has been rising during most of industrial period 1890 until now (with the exception of 1940-1978 and perhaps since 2005). Tota Rise being 0.87C = 1.57F.

This DATA since 1979 is also validated by the totally independent UAH satellite data:
Image
Sorry for the large size. See all of Roy Spencer’s plot of the satellite DATA here where the rise since 1995 has been 0.22C using red “averaged” line (or 0.32C if you include April/May 2012). And please note as Roy says
The 4th order polynomial fit to the data (courtesy of Excel) is for entertainment purposes only, and should not be construed as having any predictive value whatsoever.


So we see that David's statement in red above ("there has been no global warming over the last 17 years”) is false. However, his prognostication (“There will never in our lifetime be a catastrophic global warming tipping point”), may be right as far as “our lifteimes” is concerned. Unfortunately that is not necessarily so for our children and grandchildren. And even if we (as a global community) were to mend our ghg emitting ways immediately, the earth is still fated for 1.8- 4.0 C (according to the IPCC) by 2100. Whether some amplifying feedback (a tipping point) occurs or not (explicitly left due to political pressure in the IPCC projections), the habitat of our offspring will be adversely affected (according to most all scientists).

I noticed that David went back to GW Thread XV. Don’t overlook the DATA sources that David or Matto have not dealt with on in GW Thread XVI. This includes the increase in catastrophic weather events that have already occurred over the last 30 years corresponding to the highest levels of temp increase in the first two plots above.
Image

So David, you may "Rest in Peace” (as along as a storm, flood or prolonged drought doesn’t strike Enid), but the scientific world will be monitoring a problem that is with us right now and will get worse with time especially if we take no action as the GC/WW skeptics would have us do.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby KeithE » Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:13 pm

David Flick wrote:
David Flick wrote:.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Image
.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
The Death of the Mythical Global Warming Tipping Point


Conclusion: Since there has been no global warming over the last 17 years, the notion of a global warming tipping point is impossible. There was never a danger of runaway tipping points of no return. Inasmuch as there is presently no catastrophic global warming/climate change, there is nothing for anyone to fear. There will never in our lifetime be a catastrophic global warming tipping point.


David declares “tipping points” are non-existent and should RIP.

Scientists say otherwise.

Also David has had no reply to my DATA which disproves the statement in red above.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby David Flick » Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:55 am

David Flick wrote:
David Flick wrote:.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Image
.
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
The Death of the Mythical Global Warming Tipping Point


Conclusion: Since there has been no global warming over the last 17 years, the notion of a global warming tipping point is impossible. There was never a danger of runaway tipping points of no return. Inasmuch as there is presently no catastrophic global warming/climate change, there is nothing for anyone to fear. There will never in our lifetime be a catastrophic global warming tipping point.


KeithE wrote:David declares “tipping points” are non-existent and should RIP.
    Absolutely. Global warming tipping points exist only in the minds and literature of the AGW alarmists.

Scientists say otherwise.
    The Think Progress Blob (err, I mean blog) is among the world's leading perveyors of AGW propaganda. It ranks right up there with Wikipedia and DeSmogBlog... There are no legitimate climate scientist anywhere who subscribe to the notion that there are global warming tipping points. That's the stuff of Joe Romm, James Hansen and Al Gore.

Also David has had no reply to my DATA which disproves the statement in red above.
    Oh yes I DO have a reply Keith. Inasmuch as the only sources for supporting anthropogenic global warming is found in alarmist propaganda, I really don't need data other that what I've already posted. Anyway, I think that was a typo on my part. I intended to write "15 years" Rather than "17 years." Nevertheless, it has been at least a decade and a half since we experienced any global warning. True, the temperatures have risen slightly during that time but only minutely. There certainly has been no warming remotely close to being "unprecedented" or "catastrophic."

    Anyway, I frequently (translated, very often) post data to support my points. I will do it again in this post. Here (below) are the data, i.e. the HadCRUT4 graph which shows there has been no global warming over the last 15 years:


Image

Below are 10 articles that discuss the HadCRUT4 graph showing (above) that there has been no global warming in 15 years. You falsely claim that I never produce "DATA." To that, I declare a big double baloney cheese on you... :lol:

Keith, you can spin the alarmist propaganda until you're blue in the face, but AGW (man-made global warming) simply does not exist. Mankind is totally incapable of causing or controlling global warming and/or climate change. The notion of human-caused global warming/climate change is purely alarmist propaganda. As Abraham Lincoln said, "You may fool all of the people some of the time, you can even fool some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time." Count me among the number that has never been fooled any of the time wrt to AGW propaganda.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby KeithE » Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:19 am

I see you have backed off to 15 years and have again used the denialist machine’s distortion of what Jones said in your Documentation #1, etc. Yes I’m going to call it the denialist machine (dm for short) again (no implication of Nazism or Holocaust denial implied).

What I said was not that "you never produce data" (you have, but it has usually been cherry picked) but that you “had no reply to my DATA” showing GISS temperature back for 17 years (you have replied now). To which I’ll reply.

Here is the latest plot of all the DATA (not just the last 15 years) from HADCRU (a differing procedure than GISS uses but with highly overlapping station data and both come to the same basic conclusions). One can clearly see we are 'stuck on high' wrt air surface temp. Even if it rises no more, the earth is in for a harmfully changed habitat as that heat sinks into the biosphere and sea ice/glaciers continue their slow melt. It is quite obvious that the dm has truncated the DATA with a purpose in mind and you have fallen for it. If the temp drops to pre-industral levels, then we can relax about GW or CC.

Image
I do not have HADCRUT v4 dataplots at my disposal (thus I plotted v3) but I do have the data and your plot appears correct as for as it goes. I note that Jones etal changed some gridding methods in March 2012 and are calling that v4.

And I am not denying that the air surface temp has leveled off since 2002. 1997-1999 are obviously inflated due to a pronounced El Nino (2000 & 2001 still affected). There are several postulations why the temp has leveled off since 2002. But to ignore the previous 150 years of available data is corrupt science to say the least.

And those scientists that study the ocean, agree the ocean temperature has continued to rise during the 2000’s and humans are the cause. Recent study.

Image

As for your Documentation #1 , it is another example of the dm’s use of snippets of emails not in context from the 2009 “hacked” emails - this time applied to this new HADCRU v4 data since March 12. Here is that July 2009 email and it was not about the HADCRU v4 data but did give what data span and data quality (free from known artifacts) Jones would consider bothersome to a 2009 paper’s conclusion.

From: Phil Jones [p.jones@uea.ac.uk] Sent: Thu 07/05/2009 15:17
To: Lockwood, M (Mike)
Cc:
Subject: RE: Quick reply and another quick question ....
Attached a paper and a box in a longer article that do similar things to what you've
done.So I think it's been done, unless you think otherwise.
The box is on page S20-21 of the bigger pdf. This is part of a much bigger article
on the State of the Climate System 2008 which will appear later in the year.
Bottom line - the no upward trend has to continue for a total of 15 years before
we get worried.We're really counting this from about 2004/5 and
not 1998. 1998 was warm due to the El Nino.



This was a partial quote ("Bottom line - the no upward trend has to continue for a total of 15 years before we get worried.”) with regard to some paper written in 2009 not this HADCRU v4 data. And why leave out his condition that the 15 years must be free from artifacts like the extreme El Nino which had began to have effects in 1997, peaking in 1998 and recovered by 2002. Iow, Jones said (privately to a co-author who would understand him) that the the leveling off would only be significant to their paper if it stayed level until 2004/2005 + 15 years = 2029/2030. That was left off of the quote.

As a previous example of cherry picking statements from Jones, I have provided many times in these pages the complete transcript Dr. Phil Jones's interview with the BBC from which the denialists have cherry picked statements (as they do DATA) to try and say even PHIL jones does not believe that GW has occurred. What Dr. Jones says about AGW is clearly given in the green below:

A - Do you agree that according to the global temperature record used by the IPCC, the rates of global warming from 1860-1880, 1910-1940 and 1975-1998 were identical?
An initial point to make is that in the responses to these questions I've assumed that when you talk about the global temperature record, you mean the record that combines the estimates from land regions with those from the marine regions of the world. CRU produces the land component, with the Met Office Hadley Centre producing the marine component.
Temperature data for the period 1860-1880 are more uncertain, because of sparser coverage, than for later periods in the 20th Century. The 1860-1880 period is also only 21 years in length. As for the two periods 1910-40 and 1975-1998 the warming rates are not statistically significantly different (see numbers below).
I have also included the trend over the period 1975 to 2009, which has a very similar trend to the period 1975-1998.
So, in answer to the question, the warming rates for all 4 periods are similar and not statistically significantly different from each other.
Here are the trends and significances for each period:
Period Length Trend
(Degrees C per decade) Significance
1860-1880 21 0.163 Yes
1910-1940 31 0.15 Yes
1975-1998 24 0.166 Yes
1975-2009 35 0.161 Yes
B - Do you agree that from 1995 to the present there has been no statistically-significant global warming
Yes, but only just. I also calculated the trend for the period 1995 to 2009. This trend (0.12C per decade) is positive, but not significant at the 95% significance level. The positive trend is quite close to the significance level. Achieving statistical significance in scientific terms is much more likely for longer periods, and much less likely for shorter periods.
C - Do you agree that from January 2002 to the present there has been statistically significant global cooling?
No. This period is even shorter than 1995-2009. The trend this time is negative (-0.12C per decade), but this trend is not statistically significant.
D - Do you agree that natural influences could have contributed significantly to the global warming observed from 1975-1998, and, if so, please could you specify each natural influence and express its radiative forcing over the period in Watts per square metre.
This area is slightly outside my area of expertise. When considering changes over this period we need to consider all possible factors (so human and natural influences as well as natural internal variability of the climate system). Natural influences (from volcanoes and the Sun) over this period could have contributed to the change over this period. Volcanic influences from the two large eruptions (El Chichon in 1982 and Pinatubo in 1991) would exert a negative influence. Solar influence was about flat over this period. Combining only these two natural influences, therefore, we might have expected some cooling over this period.
E - How confident are you that warming has taken place and that humans are mainly responsible?
I'm 100% confident that the climate has warmed. As to the second question, I would go along with IPCC Chapter 9 - there's evidence that most of the warming since the 1950s is due to human activity.


The cherry picked line that the denialist machine has trounced on repeatably is given in Red above. Incredibly dishonest.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby Matto » Tue Jun 12, 2012 10:32 am

ET wrote:Flick, have you seen this video that has gone viral lately?

Earth Day: 'If I Wanted America to Fail...'

Devastating.


Wow this ad says it all. When you are faced with a great deception like that of the climate alarmists, you just have to say it straight. They want to destroy America.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby KeithE » Tue Jun 12, 2012 7:29 pm

Matto wrote:
ET wrote:Flick, have you seen this video that has gone viral lately?

Earth Day: 'If I Wanted America to Fail...'

Devastating.


Wow this ad says it all. When you are faced with a great deception like that of the climate alarmists, you just have to say it straight. They want to destroy America.


You delude yourself greatly to say “alarmists” want to destroy America. In their mind (and mine because I’m proud to be called an “alarmist” on this subject matter) they want to save the world from the trauma that GW will bring to water supply, our coast lines, extreme weather, agricultural losses, and other disruptions. Admit that much,

I don’t go around saying denialists want to destroy the world; they are just mistaken about basic scientific facts.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby KeithE » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:35 am

Note: This started in another thread but through back-linking it ended up here.
David Flick wrote:A couple of days ago, Dr. Vincent Gray, wrote an article declaring that there is not a scrap of evidence in any IPCC reports that human emissions of CO2 have any harmful effect on the climate. Dr Gray has exposed the myths and falsehoods of global warming alarmists.


Truth is the 2007 IPCC Working Group I Final Report devotes 84 pages in Chapter 9 to Understanding and Attributing Climate Change. There are over 550 referenced papers that they cite in support. The human fingerprint is all over the global warming and climate change we have already seen, and this proves that with multiple lines of DATA and reasoning. They are careful to point out possible weaknesses in their effort at finding truth -like Antarctica is one continent that has not shown an increase in temperature above noise level. They do not speak with sarcasm in their voices as Gray and Voris do. And they use known techniques (hypothesis testing) to ensure the climate increased air and ocean temperatures and various climate changes are traced to the human fingerprint. Finally they estimate their uncertainty in their analysis leading to a conservative conclusion of “high confidence” of AGW meaning as they define it “better than 9 in 10 chances”. No bluster just facts.

To call that "not a scrap of evidence" is pure poppycock. Willful non-reading of what you do not want to hear. So, David and Matto, and whoever else has doubts, READ IT. UNDERSTAND IT.

As for Dr, Vincent Gray, he is just another retired non-climatologist (89-90 year old chemist in this case) who used to work for the Coal, Oil or Mining industries. Dr. Gray is called “an expert IPCC reviewer” by his proponents in that he has chosen on his own to comment on most of the IPCC documents since his retirement. He does not have the credentials to be a contributing author or even a peer-reviewer. But nontheless I’ll quote his entire article that David linked above (actually it is a link within a link to be complete as to Dr. Gray’s efforts at his “review”):

CONFLICT OF INTEREST

I cannot do anything but rejoice at the departure of Nick Smith from the Cabinet because of a "Conflict of Interest:" He is the most fanatical supporter of the theory that "global warming" is caused by emissions of carbon dioxide. I might just repeat once again, my experience last year.

Rodney Hyde asked a question in Parliament regarding the evidence for the "global warming" theory. Nick Smith replied that he would lay on a briefing for him and the other MPs to explain this. Rodney asked whether he could bring along an expert with him. Nick Smith immediately agreed.,

As I am a member of the Climate Science Coalition in Wellington. I found myself appointed as this expert. I went along to the ACT Party office a bit before the appointed time to discuss things with Rodney Hyde. I was introduced to Sir Roger Douglas and then we went to Nick Smith's office in Parliament and went and sat down. I was welcomed by everybody present.

Then, in walked Nick Smith. He went red all over when he saw me and shouted "You don't belong here. This is for MPs only. GET OUT". So I got out. Rodney Hyde said nothing.

So now he has gone from the Environment post. Good riddance.

But "Conflict of Interest"? Is this a good reason for a dismissal? Nobody seems to realise that the most elaborate and comprehensive conflict of interest that has been inflicted on the public is the "Global Warning" Theory.

I have been an Expert Reviewer on every one of the Reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and I can tell you that there is not a scrap of evidence in any of them that human emissions of carbon dioxide have any harmful effect on the climate.

How have they got away with it?

Attempts to "simulate" their unreliable and manipulated past climate "data" have been failures, yet are claimed as successes, But even if the "data" were genuine and the simulation successful it does not prove anything. Correlation, however convincing is not evidence of causation. The only way you can demonstrate the success of any theory is successful prediction of future climate over the whole range it is intended to be used, to a satisfactory level of accuracy. This has already been done with Newton's Laws of motion and Darwin's theories of evolution. It has not been done with the "global warming" theory. There has been no successful attempt to predict any future climate event. They do not even pretend they can do it, as they only provide "projections" from their models, not "predictions": .

How have they persuaded us that they are able to predict future climate?

They operate a system called "attribution". This is a combination of "simulation" (correlation), and "assessment" by "experts". The "experts" are all paid to provide the models that they are assessing. These assessments are therefore an elaborate and comprehensive conflict of interest.

They apply a whole series of "likelihoods" to each "assessment" and apply a fake "statistical significance" which, unlike those normally applied to genuine science, have no background of actual experimental observations.

I attach the official list of instructions on how to perpetrate this elaborate fraud on the international community, from the Fourth IPCC Report.

Cheers
Vincent Gray
Wellington 6035

"To kill an error is as good a service as, and sometimes better than, the establishing of a new truth or fact" Charles Darwin


I’d say Dr. Gray’s efforts are more deserving of the designation “Not a scrap of evidence”. NO DATA, just bluster.

Dr. Gray did not expose anything just as Dr. Voris’s video does not provide any solid evidence of a “Hidden Agenda” (and yes I did listen to that video which was largely talk of unrelated eugenics/sterilization fears and practically devoid of GW technical detail[his one example of the leveling of temp increase in the 1940’s to 1978 is well understood as particulants in the air prior to the positive effects of the Clean Air Act]).
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby KeithE » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:16 am

Updated BEST Study funded in part by the Koch Brothers and with a GW skeptic (Robert Mueller) as its leader, has doubled down on their last year study and now says:

Our results show that the average temperature of the earth’s land has risen by two and a half degrees Fahrenheit over the past 250 years, including an increase of one and a half degrees over the most recent 50 years. Moreover, it appears likely that essentially all of this increase results from the human emission of greenhouse gases.
These findings are stronger than those of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the United Nations group that defines the scientific and diplomatic consensus on global warming.


In short, a Koch-funded study has found that the IPCC “consensus” underestimated both the rate of surface warming and how much could be attributed to human emissions!

As for the conversion of previous GW skeptic Robert Mueller, here is what he is saying now after this extensive all data recalculation:

CALL me a converted skeptic. Three years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming. Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I’m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause.


Here is the resulting ten year moving average data (GISS, NOAA, Hadley and now the Berkeley [BEST]) all agree.
Image
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby David Flick » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:16 am

KeithE wrote:Updated BEST Study funded in part by the Koch Brothers and with a GW skeptic (Robert Mueller) as its leader, has doubled down on their last year study and now says:

Our results show that the average temperature of the earth’s land has risen by two and a half degrees Fahrenheit over the past 250 years, including an increase of one and a half degrees over the most recent 50 years. Moreover, it appears likely that essentially all of this increase results from the human emission of greenhouse gases.
These findings are stronger than those of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the United Nations group that defines the scientific and diplomatic consensus on global warming.


In short, a Koch-funded study has found that the IPCC “consensus” underestimated both the rate of surface warming and how much could be attributed to human emissions!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the conversion of previous GW skeptic Robert Mueller, here is what he is saying now after this extensive all data recalculation:
    Keith, not only are you misinformed about the spelling of the man's name, you are misinformed about his so-called "conversion" from AGW skepticism to supporter of man-made global warming. The man's name isn't Robert Mueller. It's Richard Muller The guy is a dishonest CAGW crackpot. (...more below)
Richard Muller wrote:CALL me a converted skeptic. Three years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming. Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I’m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause.

    Muller was never an AGW skeptic. He's a liar about his identification with global warming skepticism. His scam was setting himself up to be a skeptic so that he could declare himself as being a "converted" supporter of man-made global warming. According to his testimony, he converted three years ago. But that's a balled-faced lie. Here's the truth about Richard Muller
      Nine years ago (2003), he wrote:
        "Let me be clear. My own reading of the literature and study of paleoclimate suggests strongly that carbon dioxide from burning of fossil fuels will prove to be the greatest pollutant of human history. It is likely to have severe and detrimental effects on global climate." Source...
      Four years ago (2008), he said:
        "There is a consensus that global warming is real. ...it’s going to get much, much worse." Source...
      By any calculation you wish to use, Muller is lying through his teeth when he claims that he "converted" from AGW skepticism to being a supporter of AGW. Muller, like a majority of the CAGW supporters, is dishonest to the core.

      Here's the complete scoop, (with tons of links of documentation) on Richard Muller.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the resulting ten year moving average data (GISS, NOAA, Hadley and now the Berkeley [BEST]) all agree.
Image
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby David Flick » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:18 am

KeithE wrote:Updated BEST Study funded in part by the Koch Brothers and with a GW skeptic (Robert Mueller) as its leader, has doubled down on their last year study and now says:

Our results show that the average temperature of the earth’s land has risen by two and a half degrees Fahrenheit over the past 250 years, including an increase of one and a half degrees over the most recent 50 years. Moreover, it appears likely that essentially all of this increase results from the human emission of greenhouse gases.
These findings are stronger than those of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, the United Nations group that defines the scientific and diplomatic consensus on global warming.


In short, a Koch-funded study has found that the IPCC “consensus” underestimated both the rate of surface warming and how much could be attributed to human emissions!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the conversion of previous GW skeptic Robert Mueller, here is what he is saying now after this extensive all data recalculation:
    Keith, not only are you misinformed about the spelling of the man's name, you are misinformed about his so-called "conversion" from AGW skepticism to supporter of man-made global warming. The man's name isn't Robert Mueller. It's Richard Muller The guy is a dishonest CAGW crackpot. (...more below)
Richard Muller wrote:CALL me a converted skeptic. Three years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming. Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I’m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause.

    Muller was never an AGW skeptic. He's a liar about his identification with global warming skepticism. His scam was setting himself up to be a skeptic so that he could declare himself as being a "converted" supporter of man-made global warming. According to his testimony, he converted converted a year ago. But that's a balled-faced lie. Here's the truth about Richard Muller
      Nine years ago (2003), he wrote:
        "Let me be clear. My own reading of the literature and study of paleoclimate suggests strongly that carbon dioxide from burning of fossil fuels will prove to be the greatest pollutant of human history. It is likely to have severe and detrimental effects on global climate." Source...
      Four years ago (2008), he said:
        "There is a consensus that global warming is real. ...it’s going to get much, much worse." Source...
      By any calculation you wish to use, Muller is lying through his teeth when he claims that he "converted" from AGW skepticism to being a supporter of AGW. Muller, like a majority of the CAGW supporters, is dishonest to the core.

      Here's the complete scoop, (with tons of links of documentation) on Richard Muller.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the resulting ten year moving average data (GISS, NOAA, Hadley and now the Berkeley [BEST]) all agree.
Image
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby KeithE » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:29 am

My apologies for misspelling his name. But I am not misrepresenting his 2003 “skeptical” viewpoints wrt GW.

Let’s read all of Muller’s 2003 writing that David’s link quoted from:
The disagreement is not political; most of it arises from valid issues involving physics and mathematics. First the physics. An accurate thermometer wasn't invented until 1724 (by Fahrenheit), and good worldwide records didn't exist prior to the 1900s. For earlier eras, we depend on indirect estimates called proxies. These include the widths of tree rings, the ratio of oxygen isotopes in glacial ice, variations in species of microscopic animals trapped in sediment (different kinds thrive at different temperatures), and even historical records of harbor closures from ice. Of course, these proxies also respond to other elements of weather, such as rainfall, cloud cover, and storm patterns. Moreover, most proxies are sensitive to local conditions, and extrapolating to global climate can be hazardous. Chose the wrong proxies and you'll get the wrong answer.

The math questions involve the procedures for combining data sets. Mann used a well-known approach called principle component analysis. This method extracts from a set of proxy records the behavior that they have in common. It can be more sensitive than simply averaging data, since it typically suppresses nonglobal variations that appear in only a few records. But to use it, the proxy records must be sampled at the same times and have the same length. The data available to Mann and his colleagues weren't, so they had to be averaged, interpolated, and extrapolated. That required subjective judgments which-unfortunately-could have biased the conclusions.

When I first read the Mann papers in 1998, I was disappointed that they did not discuss such systematic biases in much detail, particularly since their conclusions repealed the medieval warm period. In most fields of science, researchers who express the most self-doubt and who understate their conclusions are the ones that are most respected. Scientists regard with disdain those who play their conclusions to the press. I was worried about the hockey stick from the beginning. When I wrote my book on paleoclimate (published in 2000), I initially included the hockey stick graph in the introductory chapter. In the second draft, I cut the figure, although I left a reference. I didn't trust it enough.

Last month's article by McIntyre and McKitrick raised pertinent questions. They had been given access (by Mann) to details of the work that were not publicly available. Independent analysis and (when possible) independent data sets are ultimately the arbiter of truth. This is precisely the way that science should, and usually does, proceed. That's why Nobel Prizes are often awarded one to three decades after the work was completed-to avoid mistakes. Truth is not easy to find, but a slow process is the only one that works reliably.

It was unfortunate that many scientists endorsed the hockey stick before it could be subjected to the tedious review of time. Ironically, it appears that these scientists skipped the vetting precisely because the results were so important.


Let me be clear. My own reading of the literature and study of paleoclimate suggests strongly that carbon dioxide from burning of fossil fuels will prove to be the greatest pollutant of human history. It is likely to have severe and detrimental effects on global climate. I would love to believe that the results of Mann et al. are correct, and that the last few years have been the warmest in a millennium.

Love to believe? My own words make me shudder. They trigger my scientist's instinct for caution. When a conclusion is attractive, I am tempted to lower my standards, to do shoddy work. But that is not the way to truth. When the conclusions are attractive, we must be extra cautious.

The public debate does not make that easy. Political journalists have jumped in, with discussion not only of the science, but of the political backgrounds of the scientists and their potential biases from funding sources. Scientists themselves are also at fault. Some are finding fame and glory, and even a sense that they are important. (That's remarkably rare in science.) We drift into ad hominem counterattacks. Criticize the hockey stick and some colleagues seem to think you have a political agenda-I've discovered this myself. Accept the hockey stick, and others accuse you of uncritical thought.

There are also the valid concerns of politicians who have to make decisions in a timely way. In 1947, Harry Truman grew so annoyed at the prevarications of economists that he joked that he wanted a one-armed advisor-who could not hedge his conclusions with the phrase "on the other hand."

Some people think that science is served by open debate between left-handed and right-handed advocates, just as in politics. But the history of science shows it is best done by people who have two hands each. Present results with caution, and insist on equivocating. Leave it to the president and his advisors to make decisions based on uncertain conclusions. Don't exaggerate the results. Use both hands. We cannot afford to lower our standards merely because the problem is so urgent.


David’s linked article (as usual for his links) takes words out of context (like the red ones, ignoring the green ones). Overall that2003 writing from Muller is about 94% GW skeptical with a 6% CYA(just in case) GW alarmist. Count the words.

As for his comments to Wired Magazine in 2008 (also linked in David’s linked article trying to prove Muller was an alarmist by selective quotation) here they are:
Wired: And the third physics issue for presidents?

Muller: Global warming. There is a consensus that global warming is real. There has not been much so far, but it’s going to get much, much worse. The thing I would tell the president is that the global warming, according to the global consensus — that’s the IPCC
scientists, who won the Nobel Prize — the global warming of the future is going to come from the developing world. It’s the exploding economies of China and India and Asia that are going to be responsible for the CO2.


This causes a political problem because they are poor and have a low standard of living and shouldn’t have to pay for emissions cuts.

So, the only way this is going to work is that we pay the expense of them cutting back.If all we do is set an example, the example we’ll have set is that once you’re a wealthy nation, you can cut back on CO2.

If that’s the example, they will wait until they are wealthy and then they’ll cut back and it’ll be too late.

Of course, if either one of the candidates said, we have to send
$100 billion to China, they’d lose. But after the election maybe they can talk about that.

Doing feel-good things in the U.S. is fine. Going to biofuels is good for energy independence. Going to solar and nuclear is also good for energy independence and also good for global warming. But the U.S. is going to contribute less than 1 degree of warming to future warming.
The future is primarily going to come from China. Their economy is growing at 10 percent a year. And their carbon footprint is growing even faster, 10 or 12 percent per year. The developing world is taking off.

The OECD countries [a group of wealthier nations] are now contributing much less than one-half of the carbon dioxide. The non-OECD countries are growing and growing in their energy use. And we have to be happy about that. It’s a good thing because it means their standard of living is getting better. It’s even a good thing for population control to have people who are happy and healthy.


Again, red text are David’s linked article selective quotes. Those quotes are not representative. He mostly diverts the discussion from what the future US President should do in the USA to trying to control others like China/India/Asia (again while throwing a few CYA words).

I also have his 2008 book Physics for Future Presidents where Part V (pages 251 through 344) discuss Global Warming and Energy. He mainly comes across as a pure “science” arbiter in these pages between what he calls two extremes (GW alarmists and GW skeptics). Mostly he says (as in the Wired interview about his book), don’t do much as far as the US carbon footprint reduction is concerned (and keep up the drilling in Alaska page 276-277), but try to control China and India’s carbon emissions (that’s where the real harm will come from). But overall, I’d say there has been a slight movement from his GW skepticism of 2003 to a more nuanced view in 2008 (he advocates for certain alternative energies like nuclear, clean coal, carbon credits in Chapters 24/25). But clearly not to the point of being an GW alarmist (for instance he poohs poohs recycling, energy usage reduction, electric/hybrid cars, Kyoto, and solar energy in his chapter on “Non-Solutions” in Chapter 23 and the Hockey stick on pages 292-295). He was not there yet in 2008.

I take Muller’s current word (July 2012) about his “conversion”:
CALL me a converted skeptic. Three years ago I identified problems in previous climate studies that, in my mind, threw doubt on the very existence of global warming. Last year, following an intensive research effort involving a dozen scientists, I concluded that global warming was real and that the prior estimates of the rate of warming were correct. I’m now going a step further: Humans are almost entirely the cause.

far more than David’s selective quotes.

Now Muller is with the alarmists (and AGW as well) more so than the 2007 IPCC. And btw, the 2012 IPCC is already showing signs of being more “alarmist" than IPCC 2007 (which was watered down in the Summary for Policymakers review by countries). That is because the DATA is more abundantly clear (especially Arctic melting, ocean temp increases, and incidence of extreme weather). These “alarmists” scientists are not “false alarmists”. The further one delves into the actual DATA as Muller has done, the more alarmist an open minded scientist becomes. Ideologues are difficult to change especially with strong funding from self-serving industry that bankroll the denialist movement. This time the Koch Brothers got what they deserve.
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Postby KeithE » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:21 am

Informed by Data.
Driven by the SPIRIT and JESUS’s Example.
Promoting the Kingdom of GOD on Earth.
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Re: Global Warming Thread XV

Postby David Flick » Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:58 pm

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CAGW Hysteria on Steriods

Here's one for the books. Keith's favorite climate website, Think Progress, is global warming hysteria on steroids. Check this article out:

Soros-Funded Propaganda Machine Think Progress Falsely Claims Global Warming Melted Street Lights in Oklahoma

By Noel Sheppard | August 02, 2012

So eager are the shills at the George Soros-funded far-left website Think Progress to find evidence of global warming that on Thursday they falsely blamed melting street lights in Stillwater, Oklahoma, on the heat.

As originally reported by TP's Stephen Lacey:

Here’s a picture from Stillwater, Oklahoma, where temperatures will reach has high as 115 degrees today. The photo comes from Patrick Hunter, who sent the picture to KFOR-TV.

Even as residents swelter in the relentless heat, Oklahoma Senator James Inhofe continued his tirade about man-made global warming during a Senate hearing yesterday, saying the science had “collapsed.”

It appears the only thing collapsing are the street lights.

That was in an article published Thursday hysterically titled "In Oklahoma, It’s So Hot The Street Lights Are Melting."

If you go to that link now, you'll find a completely different story with the headline "UPDATE: In Oklahoma City, It’s So Hot And Dry There’s Mandatory Water Rationing."

Way down at the bottom is this:

    UPDATE: After we published this piece, we saw reports from people on the ground in Stillwater that the melting streetlights were due to a nearby fire. The person who took the photo, Patrick Hunter, described the scene: “Being the person that actually took this photo, I’d say that this was due to a fire semi-close by coupled with the unbelievable heat we are experiencing. Still an amazing photo and not fake as many are saying on here. Enjoy!”

They are some fine journalists at that Soros-funded propaganda outlet, aren't they?

Unfortunately, as so often happens with the garbage at TP, it makes its way to other left-wing publications.

Continue reading...
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