A Woman in a SBC Church Pulpit Draws Interest

[Sandy]

[Dave Roberts]

Sandy, I can only relate to what you said about women who were seeking to fulfill a lifelong ambition by seeking the pastorate by relating my own experiences with three women in ministry, two Baptist and one United Methodist. In two of the three cases, the women who are all now pastors or former pastors stated that they felt they were under a direct divine call for the ministry. One was happily ensconed in a counseling profession, another was a Christian educator, and one was working for the state park service. None of them had women ministers directly in their background, in fact one came from a Catholic background. I assume, from what you said, that you would tell them they did not understand God. Is that what I am reading in your responses?

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy---have you ever walked in the shoes of women?

Most churches you describe expect them to do most of the work and keep their mouths shut. They refuse to acknowledge the strong influence they exercise over their husbands who can make "official decisions." That is forcing women to hide themselves in the bushes of church work.

In Jewish culture from which our Bible comes, they were the man's property with no rights. Other surrounding cultures like Egypt allowed women the same legal rights as men = own property, inherit, have temples led by women, etc.

This country had a great turmoil over giving women the right to vote. It has been a blessing. Women went to work during WWII and we found out we had a whole segment of American very capable of producing goods. In some cases of delicate work, women did a better job than men. Now, with joysticks flying aircraft, they are better adapted to fine maneuvers of planes than men.

Until you see the values of your wife and daughters, you will never walk in their shoes and feel the discrimination you are enjoying in your view of how they fit in with the church.

[Lamar Wadsworth]

Sandy, I agree that it doesn't matter to God who serves the bread and the cup to the congregation--but it matters to some of the churches I've dealt with, and in most of the SBC churches I've known that role has been reserved for ordained men. That is pure tradition without any basis in scripture. Scripture speaks to the issue of who should partake of the bread and the cup but says nothing about who should serve it, leaving me to conclude that anyone qualified to partake is qualified to serve. The little girl baptized last Sunday is as well qualified as any of us to serve the bread and the cup.

As for women's roles being limited simply because they are women, I have experienced that. When my mother died in 2008, we were not allowed to have her funeral at Second Baptist Church in Rockmart GA where she was an active member for 52 years because we had asked two women to read scripture at the service--not preach or teach (though I see no problem with that), just read scripture. Both of the women are exemplary Christians, both were forbidden to read scripture simply because they are women. Our church, Heritage Baptist Church in Cartersville GA, honored Mother like one of its own and gave her the homegoing she deserved, with Elizabeth Kinnebrew and Wanda Key reading scripture.

Sandy, as for female pastors having a strong testimony of divine calling, all I can say is that you must not know the ones that I have known. Most of the female pastors I have known personally have had a very compelling testimony of being called by God. I've heard more than one say that she could not have survived in ministry without that.

[Haruo]

And many, including our own pastor Judy Gay, began their careers with a bias against female pastors themselves, but were called out by God in contravention of their own prior beliefs and wishes.

[Ed Pettibone]

[Sandy]

Well, personal experience certainly figures into perspective on this matter. I've never been part of a church where women were forbidden to read the scripture, or couldn't stand behind a pulpit, or didn't get asked to pass the offering plate, or teach a class. My mom served as a church hostess for thirty years. In addition to being responsible for literally hundreds of dinners, pot lucks and fellowships over that stretch of time, she was also the face of the congregation to people who came to inquire about using the building for weddings, and also served as the funeral coordinator. She was fulfilling a calling, though some people would say that's not important work. It was certainly not something a man could do with the woman's touch that my mom brought to it. She'd never have considered teaching a class, much less being in the pulpit, or even singing in the choir.

I've known dozens of women who served alongside their husbands, and under his authority, who were fulfilled and happy in their calling. Most of them had no ambition to take their husband's place, or be his "equal" in another ministry position. They were women who knew the scripture, accepted what it said about their role in the church, and set out with firm determination to fulfill it.

Perhaps, because of geography, I've never actually lived in a place where the Southern Baptist churches interpreted I Corinthians 14:34-35 to mean that women can't do anything. The context of the passage has to do with church authority, not ministry. I can't think of an SBC church to which I've belonged in my lifetime in which the women were not respectful of the authority of those called to leadership. I also can't think of one in which women were not doing a significant portion of the ministry, all in a way that honors the scripture's order of authority in the church, with men serving in the leadership role of Pastor/Bishop/Overseer. Even at that, I acknowledge that Baptist churches are independent and autonomous, and if a church determines that women shouldn't read scripture, speak in public or show any sign of leadership, they can do so if they choose. People are free to be part of whatever body of Christ they want to join.

[Gene Scarborough]

Thanks, Ed, for the wonderful testimony about a woman being called---despite her objections!

[Dave Roberts]

Sandy, you have not seen the extemes. I had friends who served for several years as IMB missionaries. When they returned home and were invited to speak in one church near where I was pastoring at the time. They had been invited to speak about their experiences. When the wife walked up to the pulpit alongside her husband, the pastor came up and led her off the platform and told her that he could not allow her to corrupt his pulpit by bringing female genes onto the platform of the church. The pastor then got her a microphone and "allowed" her to contribute from a spot standing on the floor below her husband showing she was in proper submission. They shared that similar things had happened to other IMB personnel, several of whom had been greatly embarassed. Additionally, I know other pastors who have forced women out of teaching coed Sunday School classes, and even one who would not allow a woman to teach boys over the age of 5. Those were both in SBC churches of more than 500 members, so this was not on the daffy fringe.

[Gene Scarborough]

This kind of literally makes me want to

Thanks for sharing the tip of the SBC iceberg on discrimination under BF&M 2000 distortions of thinking, Dave.

[Dave Roberts]

[Lamar Wadsworth]

[Gene Scarborough]

Dave---

I am not surprised since the basis of BF&M 2000 was laid down since the 1979 changes in the SBC.

No matter what----it is a shame an disgrace!

[Sandy]

[Ed Pettibone]

Sandy: It seems like most of the churches and associations that are held up as the more extreme examples of SBC "oppression" of women are in the deep South. I'm beginning to think that living and serving as a Southern Baptist outside of Dixieland might have been more of a blessing than I thought it was...

Ed: Sandy obviously you missed my comments about about the SBTS Van ministies into Indiana and Michigan. Many of the SBC churches in those two so called "pioneer" mission areas are every bit as restrictive of women if not more so than any thing I ever saw in the south. Why do you think the SBC has met in Indianapolis three times in the past 3 decades.

[Dave Roberts]

In 1967, I served in Student Summer Missions in the Utah/Idaho convention. Some of us got in trouble for letting the women on our team read scripture and give testimonies from the pulpits of a couple of churches. The leaders out there were all former Texans. In other congregations, it was a non-issue.

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

I'm just glad I don't have to worry with this crap anymore since the SBC has left me and the CBF is finding more important things to consider

[Tim Bonney]

I wonder how many SBC churches in the north are made up of transplanted southerners and how many have significant northern membership? The reason I wonder is you'd think a church with membership out of its local culture would have trouble getting new members.

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

If a church becomes a "glorified social club" it is in trouble

[Tim Bonney]

[Gene Scarborough]

That sounds like a "mighty good" place to be without the prejudices most southerners bring!

I hasten to say that the Irish hate / oriental / mexican is in other places where we tend to pick on black folks down south

Prejudice and hate seems to know no bounds---and that is sad

[Tim Bonney]

There certainly prejudice everywhere Gene! I wasn't trying to critique southern culture. I grew up with a fair amount of it with much of my family being from southern Missouri and in SBC churches. But it doesn't necessarily play well in the north. While we are in one denomination in the UMC, even some things are different in culture between northern and southern Methodists.

[Gene Scarborough]

The biggest problem in America and in religion is making room for diversity