NAMB in Dilemma with State Conventions

[Gene Scarborough]

[William Thornton]

Gene, you need to read my blog to get up to speed on this controversy. I'll give you the short course here:

1. The SBC voted to recommend that NAMB have control of their own budget, rather than kick back millions to existing state conventions for various positions and projects through what was called "Cooperative Agreements."
2. The SBC voted to recommend that NAMB take steps to put 50% of their budget into church planting.
3. NAMB trustees voted to implement the expressed recommendations of the SBC and is moving money from funding state convention infrastructure to church planting.
4. State conventions don't like the changes because they defund certain positions and shift money from some state conventions to others.
5. Many state conventions would like to move back to the status quo ante with NAMB. No one likes for their budget to be cut.

You are vastly underinformed here. The problem exhibited has is rooted in the reality that NAMB and Kevin Ezell DO have a focus, church planting, not that they do not.

The state conventions are autonomous, as is NAMB, and the former have no claim on the budget of the latter.

[Gene Scarborough]

William---

I am more up to speed than your think. Both my father and I worked for the HMB with a great new ministry to the Juvenile Courts. That ministry is now gone because it was sucked into Christian Social Ministries and those workers did not care enough to minister to "criminals in the making" and their families. Both my father and I approached that ministry encouraging local churches of all types to encourage their member families to adopt and mentor a child and his family with deep troubles---and crime creeping in so "little criminals became adult criminals" since the official system of juvenile crime was badly overloaded with children in trouble with the law.

The major concern I am reading is how a "top down" approach to missions is being now employed.

On a practical basis let me share the story of my venture to Binghamton, NY, back in the 80's. It was one of the first Partnership ventures by the HMB. I went with the understanding from the HMB that the Southern Tier Association was in a "lost land" of NY and Pennsylvania.

What I found was a strong single church (Lincoln Avenue) in Binghamton, NY. It's success was due to many IBM employees up there from the south. They found a good home and were about to build a new large sanctuary when IBM decided to move their operation to Texas and return them to their briar patch for Baptists in the South. At the time the foundations were dug and building materials were sitting on the lot----but the congregation could not get enough money together to proceed to a conclusion.

What I really found was that Southern Baptists were viewed as a "cultic group" akin to Jehovah's Witenesses and Mormons. There were multiple churches all over the town. They went from more traditional Methodist / Presbyterian / Catholic to small congregations practicing tongues and emotional worship akin to the other small Southern Baptist churches planted across the Association. Our churches were viewed as "strange" and the kinds of pastors leading all but Lincoln Avenue pretty much lived up to the expectations of the public.

Now---here is the real problem: if we viewed ourselves as cooperating followers of Christ rather than "the answer" to "mislead other groups," I believe we would be much wiser. The problem is not in the Gospel message! It lies with the arrogance of Ezell and his mega-church mindset. He is no longer a dictator Senior Minister for his old church. He is in an area where COOPERATION is the main concept for any good and wise Executive Leader.

In days of wiser Home MIssions work, we provided missionaries who went where churches did not thrive---poor neighborhoods / jail ministry / Baptist Mission Centers / language missions / etc. Now we are on a "church planting" mode---and we are not as welcome as we think. Other denominations are already there and what makes us think we have all the solutions to spiritual needs?

[William Thornton]

Gene, I love you bro, but you don't have a clue about this. [I do, however, hereby designate you as SBC News and Trends Official Expert on the old Home Mission Board.]

[Dave Roberts]

In talking with an individual whose job has been under a cooperative agreement, NAMB provided medical, disability, life insurance, and retirement. Now the agency to which he is assigned must pick them up. It leaves NAMB more money, but it means there will be less on state and local levels, or that some personnel will be serving without insurance and retirement coverage which is most of what NAMB has provided. Am I correctly informed?

[Sandy]

I don't see that NAMB has curtailed any of what it used to call "Christian Social Ministries" support from its budget. Mostly the cuts have been in the money that they sent, lump sum, back to state conventions. At that point, they had no way to tell to what it was applied or how it was spent, and whether or not it was consistent with the reason it was given. This way, it is either going directly into their social ministries, or into church planting support.

There's no way the state convention here in Penn/South Jersey could sustain the kind of church planting effort that NAMB has supported over the past couple of years, nor could they have engaged in the kind of work that NAMB is doing in the inner cities, particularly in Philadelphia, but even here in Pittsburgh. And if the churches are there, and they are reaching people, they are providing the kind of ministry that is needed in their community.

The paternalistic attitude of the old HMB, that only Southerners really know how to do home mission work on behalf of their own denomination, didn't work too well in most places that weren't culturally attuned to the way "Suthun Babdiss" did things.

[Gene Scarborough]

Sandy and William:

You have both avoided my question/observation: Do we need to be in places where churches and ministry are plenteous and we are viewed as "strange?"

I told it just like it was in 1980. If you are calling me a "liar" then I might just have to visit with you!!!!

[William Thornton]

[William Thornton]

[Gene Scarborough]

William---

Please define "lack Gospel witness."

I didn't find such in the Southern Tier Association and Binghamton, NY. Maybe you have been places I have not

[William Thornton]

[Sandy]

If you examine the record, and look at the church planting with which NAMB has been directly involved, it is not taking place in areas where, as you say, "churches and ministry are plenteous and we are viewed as strange." If that's the case in Binghampton, NY, then that city is quite unusual in terms of any similarity to other cities of the same size in the Northeast. The county seat of the county in which I live in Pennsylvania has a lot of churches, and a number of large church buildings, but in most cases, the congregations have dwindled down to a handful of older members. On any given Sunday, you'd find more empty pews than you would people, and many of the churches have drifted far away from preaching the gospel. The First Baptist Church is a viable, gospel preaching, Bible-believing congregation affiliated with the GARBC, but doesn't have the resources to meet the evangelistic, discipleship or ministry needs of this city of about 30,000 people. The few other evangelical, gospel-preaching congregations include an Assembly of God, a large CMA church, two small SBC congregations, and a PCA church. I know the pastors of most of those, and they would be very open to another SBC church plant, or another evangelical church of any kind starting up.

I've worked with World Changers through NAMB, and now Lifeway, for a number of years, and they had a project in Binghampton this past summer. Word is that there is very little ministry going on there, and this NAMB project was welcomed with open arms by all kinds of churches of differing denominational backgrounds. My wife and I visited at the Buffalo, NY World Changers and I know that it was extremely well received by the churches of the community. From what I saw, the inner city of Buffalo is a wasteland of disbanded, abandoned church buildings, with few viable churches. But there are several thriving SBC church plants there, and more to come.

[Gene Scarborough]

I will take your word for it BUT I live in Bath, NC, where the Church of Christ is as prominent as Baptists elsewhere in the state. The reason is that there is a school at Elizabeth City graduating students who pastor these churches.

Someone suggested my wife and I start a new Baptist church here.

Immediately I ask, "What's the point? We have enough chuches to accomodate every religious desire from the formality of the oldest Episcopal church in the state to the new somewhat charismatic non-denominational group."

Frankly, I see no point in adding another entity to the plethora of churches here

[Jerry_B]

NAMB is such an unmitigated disaster, just wow!

Churches no longer need worry about planting churches, NAMB will take of it. Associations need not worry about their working together with other churches in their local community, NAMB will take of it. Now it NAMB doesn't take of it or pulls your money for taking care of it, well it's because it's no longer worth being taken care of.

BTW this situation highlighted in the article has already happened in New Mexico and Alaska, conventions too small to do anything other then bend over and grab their ankles "Thank you sir may I have another!"

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

Thanks for the Binghamton update, Ed.

I gather you are seeing our SBC egotism as a sham when there are many evangelical Christians already there!

[William Thornton]

[Gene Scarborough]

William---

It is still the group in which I grew up and served as pastor and HMB chaplain. However, as currently run, it is no longer mine to enjoy and support.

My official membership is at Lakeside Baptist in Rocky Mount which left a few years ago when the ordination of women issue became so fixed. Lakeside has had women deacons for years and will not change it to meet the new rules. It is total CBF now. The 2000 BF&M is mostly unacceptable!

My actual attendance is at New Bern First Baptist which is bi-Baptist and heavily leans to CBF. When my wife is through working and commuting and we have energy to go the hour to New Bern, we will be attending often. Now we worship via their lovely TV presentation at 11:00 of the only formal worship on any channel here. No praise courses or swaying---just good sermons of intelligence and choir doing mostly traditional music.

If the SBC ever saw the mistake of the destruction of Autonomy and becoming so Jerry Faldwell in theology that he would join, I might return. At present they have forsaken me more than I have left them!

Clear??????????

[William Thornton]

Gene, have you visited any of the churches, Baptist or otherwise, where you are now living? Just asking.

[Gene Scarborough]

I am friends with all the Ministers here in Bath and nearby. We are too tired and too traveled to dress and go on most Sunday mornings.

With limited time and energy, I visit often during the week with Dr. Steve Fitzgerald of New Bern First---mostly via email and phone and an occasional visit to New Bern when I can afford the fuel to travel outside of work needs. We mentor one another and I applaude his church's efforts to reach people and grow. They are active in mission adventures both overseas and at home.

When I go to church---I go seeking inspiration and fellowship. I also go wanting to offer myself since I have little money these days of hard economics and sparse earnings. I have offered my pastoral and preaching skills to all the local churches--including the local SBC Association and UMC District Superintendent.

I think we all have our place in sharing the Good News. Many of my tree customers get ministerial counsel as they reveal their personal problems after I gain their trust by removing a dangerous tree. That is actually more sincere and effective than when I toted my Bible and wore my suit and tie as an "official Pastor." God is still using me and I hope the same is true for you in your retirement days.

[Sandy]

[Gene Scarborough]

It has been since the 80's that I was in Binghamton so I have no current take on it.

I'm just concerned when we get the picture of a "lost land" and it's really not lost at all!

Perhaps a big part of the problem is organized religion vs. authentic faith and work. If you take that into account, there are lots of places which lost the pretense of following Christ to the reality of ministering and sharing the Gospel.

The one thing I do know is that we tend to be arrogant in assuming no one is a Christian but a Southern Baptist

[Sandy]

[Ed Pettibone]

[Gene Scarborough]

I think people pick and choose what to attend and honor.

Some simply want to be left alone and with their family. Others have seen something which turned them off from organized religion. No one is drawn to a mess of fussing and fighting among the members.

I share your view of mega churches as theatrical and entertaining while costing much to build and maintain. The fall of the Chrystal Cathedral is a first indicator that their time can be limited. The Robert Schuler personality could not be replicated by his children anymore than Franklin Graham is taking his father's place.

I think much of the religious scene has more to do with the wants and desires of the individual. Just because they don't do what we think is necessary in no way "proves" they are "lost." For me, the "joy of salvation" is a key to real relationship to God.

How many angry and unhappy people do we know frequenting our own church buildings going through their penance