Backlash against the religious right?

[Chris]

I found this interesting article on the growing number of atheists.

http://www.theweekdaily.com/article/ind ... in-america

I didn't know that Pat Tillam (friendly fire victim) was an atheist.

[Gene Scarborough]

I think we use the term, athiest, with too little care. To dislike organized religion does not make one an athiest.

I am a fan of Leslie D. Weatherhead who generated much thought on religion by describing himself as a Christian Agnostic. His self-definition meant he could not be "certain" over many religious issues, but he could doubt and still be a valid person of faith in God.

[Ed Pettibone]

I think we use the term, athiest, with too little care. To dislike organized religion does not make on an athiest.

I am a fan of Leslie D. Weatherhead who generated much thought on religion by describing himself as a Christian Agnostic. His self-definition meant he could not be "certain" over many religious issues, but he could doubt and still be a valid person of faith in God.

Gene did you read the story that Chris linked? The writer starts by saying

How many atheists are there?
It depends on your definition of the term. Only between 1.5 and 4 percent of Americans admit to so-called "hard atheism," the conviction that no higher power exists.

And goes on to present a foundation for discussion.

[Mrs Haruo]

I don't know if Uncle Baxter knows what an agnostic is, he once told me that "I believe in God, we just aren't on speaking terms".

[Timothy Bonney]

I get what I think people mean when they say they believe in God but not in "organized religion" I think. But it is pretty clear that Jesus organized a religion. So it is kind of hard to believe in Jesus and then decide you don't believe in what he organized.

[Haruo]

I get what I think people mean when they say they believe in God but not in "organized religion" I think. But it is pretty clear that Jesus organized a religion. So it is kind of hard to believe in Jesus and then decide you don't believe in what he organized.

Two problems here:

1) It is quite possible to read what Jesus did as something quite different from, maybe even antithetical to, organizing a religion.

2) It is quite possible to conclude that whatever Jesus (or his first-generation followers) may have organized, what passes for "the Church" nowadays is not the same thing.

It is not necessary to come to either of those conclusions, but both are quite possible, and in my opinion the data are ambiguous.

[Timothy Bonney]

Hauro, I could easily see how you get #2 but I don't know how someone could get the idea in #1 that Jesus didn't organize a church. The recruitment of the 12 and their training as well as the accounts of Jesus instructing the 12 all the way until the Last Supper point to the intent of organizing and creating the Church.

I suppose you could argue that to do so was a decision of the Disciples themselves. But since you can get an "organization" even in the earliest gospels it is hard for me to fathom that Jesus didn't intend to create the Church.

[Timothy Bonney]

Another way too early in the morning thought:

If it weren't for "organized religion", that is the church I'd likely not know Jesus, the church warts and all with all its flaws is better than not having a means of sharing God's grace.

[Chris]

...the church warts and all with all its flaws is better than not having a means of sharing God's grace.

Sometimes our best thoughts come early in the morning.

[Gene Scarborough]

I disagree that Jesus "organized" anything.

He "inspired" followers and they organized behind and around him.

It involved a "pecking order" between the bombast of Peter and quiet of Andrew finding a boys with his lunch. It involved the "Sons of Thunder" / tax collector / physician / etc.---so all were welcome despite their personality differences.

It involved expectations that Jesus would bring in the Kingdom of God in a davidic sense, but Jesus (at the ressurection) declared, "The Kingdom of God is in you." It proves even the Disciples didn't completely "get it."

The First Christians organized around the Apostles and Paul. Paul and Peter did not get along. Judas was gone through suicide from his betrayal. None of the Apostles nor Paul was perfect---just wanting the story to continue to be told.

From the invitation to the first "Fishers of Men" some got it better than others / all had their quirks / when the going got tough at the last days the followers were sleeping while Jesus was praying and at the foot of the cross only John and the 2 Marys could be found to the end. Old Peter was cussing and denying he knew Jesus = so much for bombast under pressure!

The Religious Right is but another distortion where each person tries to dictate that HIS VERSION of Jesus/church must prevail.

If it doesn't contain a willingness to sacrifice---and love and forgive one another---no version of any religion contains a real picture of Jesus' kind of religion. He made it clear in Matthew 23 that the Pharisees and Temple had screwed up his Father's House and turned it into a den of thieves!

I see too much of that version of religion among the "religious right."

[Timothy Bonney]

I disagree that Jesus "organized" anything.

He "inspired" followers and they organized behind and around him.

What? he specifically chose the twelve. How is that not organizing? He educated the twelve, he gave them a mission and a vision for the work of the church. If that isn't "organization" I don't know what is.

[Dave Roberts]

There was at least some organization. The first office selected was a treasurer.

[Gene Scarborough]

None of us "organized religion" people can't seem to enjoy just "hanging out with God"

[Timothy Bonney]

None of us "organized religion" people can seem to enjoy just "hanging out with God"

That isn't the conclusion I'd come to. I'd not had a chance to "hang out with God" if it wasn't for organized Christian faith groups. I didn't discovered Jesus in a vacuum. It was a Sunday School teacher who first told me about Jesus. Sunday School is an organization. Later I was part of an organized youth group, an organized BSU, and organized Christian college, and organized seminary, etc. etc. etc.

I don't know too many people who found Jesus just hanging out by themselves somewhere. The church is an "organization" and I don't see that as a bad thing. You organized to get things done. Just hanging out can be a very self-centered activity. Jesus did say "sit still and hang out with me" he said "Go and make disciples."

[Gene Scarborough]

Again---we try to make sure "organized" is a part of "faith" which functions best when one "believes" God exists as a starting point.

I can tell you this as a father whose 2 children saw too much organized hate focused on their father as he pastored 2 sick churches.

Both choose NOT to attend church these days, but do choose to love their children and share the Bible with them. If you want to call this "organized religion," then go ahead. As the father of these 2 wise and loving children, we taught by action as did my parents and received bad treatment from the "religiously organized" as did Jesus with his cross.

Fortunately, it didn't cost me my life nor my integrity and I enjoy "hanging out with God" in the same fashion my beloved grandfather did on his farm. His story is one of a young man elected Treasurer of his little country church and likely criticizing his integrity in that position. His response was to "hang out" and tell them to "stick it where the sun don't shine!"

[Ed Pettibone]

Again---we try to make sure "organized" is a part of "faith" which functions best when one "believes" God exists as a starting point.

I can tell you this as a father whose 2 children saw too much organized hate focused on their father as he pastored 2 sick churches.

Both choose NOT to attend church these days, but do choose to love their children and share the Bible with them. If you want to call this "organized religion," then go ahead. As the father of these 2 wise and loving children, we taught by action as did my parents and received bad treatment from the "religiously organized" as did Jesus with his cross.

Fortunately, it didn't cost me my life nor my integrity and I enjoy "hanging out with God" in the same fashion my beloved grandfather did on his farm. His story is one of a young man elected Treasurer of his little country church and likely criticizing his integrity in that position. His response was to "hang out" and tell them to "stick it where the sun don't shine!"

Ed: With that last comment I am no more impressed with your beloved grandfather that I have been with you in the last two years and 10 days.

[Gene Scarborough]

Tough sugar, Ed---the more snarly you become, the less I think of you either!

[Timothy Bonney]

Again---we try to make sure "organized" is a part of "faith" which functions best when one "believes" God exists as a starting point.

I can tell you this as a father whose 2 children saw too much organized hate focused on their father as he pastored 2 sick churches.

Gene I can certainly tell that you and your family have had bad experiences with local expressions of the church. And I'm sorry that Ed can't see the pain you obviously experienced here and has chosen to respond with his customary venom.

However, let me suggest to you that it isn't "organized" faith that is the problem here. It is church organization without discipline or accountability. In other words lack of accountable organization. When the organizing principles found in the Bible for church aren't followed individuals in local churches can create little kingdoms and clicks whose only purpose is the propping up of their own power structure. I've been there too. Pastors and lay people get hurt by these kind of people all the time.

But that isn't a failure of the design of the organization for the church that Jesus and the Apostles designed. It is the fault of dysfunctional organization in local churches and misguided and sometimes evil people. You might want to look at the book, "Clergy Killers" http://www.amazon.com/Clergy-Killers-Gu ... 0664257534 for some guidance on the difference between normal church conflict and abusive behavior.

Often Gene local church autonomy is a contributing factor to this kind of abuse. Abusers gravitate to structures they can control be that pastors or laity. And when they find a structure that is accountable to no one outside of their local setting they know they've found their haven for power and abuse. It isn't the intention of local autonomy. But it is one of the side effects.

[Gene Scarborough]

The beauty of your church structure is that it decides what is "wise and authentic Christianity"---much as did the early church councils when things went strangely crazy and that insanity was causing conflict.

When you build a good structure, you start with some point of reference and Canon means "measuring stick." If every person gets to use his own mis-calibrated measure, you just get a mess. Especially if it is "social standing." One of the Deacons who helped get rid of my father confessed later that he was not even a professing Christian when he did his dirty deed---church member, yes / Christian, NO! Such a sad commentary after the hanging.

I appreciate your understanding of my experience. It comes only when one has seen it for himself. All the problems my father and I had in pastoral ministry came from our value of the Bible and Jesus' way. We both hoped that living and preaching that way would bring about a straightening of the convoluted messed up structure.

Sadly, they would rather chase off the Prophet than to change their ways!

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Tim why do you find it necessary to apologize for my criticism Genes crude expression and his self pity party about decades old instances of what in his one sided accounts he was always an innocent victim. Early on I had some empathy for his plight, but his penchant for making those experiences his basis for explaining most issues in nearly every subject on these boards has grown old. And I have gotten to know some people who knew him even before he became a pastor.

[Timothy Bonney]

Of course the same kind of thing happens in churches of all different types and structures. The difference, one hopes, is that when the church has a system of accountability that it is used. One of the reasons the RCC is in such trouble is that they have a system of accountability and failed to use it with abusive priests. So even the best organizational structure means nothing if the rules aren't followed.

But I still have to say that I know Jesus today because of the church. I experienced the call to preach in the church. I was ordained by the church. So despite the mistreatment I've experience at the hands of some individual Christians I still believe the church to be the body of Christ.

[Timothy Bonney]

Ed: Tim why do you find it necessary to apologize for my criticism Genes crude expression and his self pity party about decades old instances of what his one sided accounts in which he always pains himself as an innocent victim. Early on I had some empathy for his plight but his penchant for making those experiences his basis for explaining most issues in nearly every subject on these boards has grown old. And I have gotten to know some people who knew him even before he became a pastor.

Because Ed you are acting like a jerk. I've been where Gene has been and I know it leaves lasting scars some of which never can be made right.

If you can't bring yourself to act like a Christian when someone is expressing hurt to what he believes to be other brothers and sisters in Christ then you need to have a talk with the Master about your attitude.

[Ed Pettibone]

Ed: Tim why do you find it necessary to apologize for my criticism Genes crude expression and his self pity party about decades old instances of what his one sided accounts in which he always pains himself as an innocent victim. Early on I had some empathy for his plight but his penchant for making those experiences his basis for explaining most issues in nearly every subject on these boards has grown old. And I have gotten to know some people who knew him even before he became a pastor.

Because Ed you are acting like a jerk. I've been where Gene has been and I know it leaves lasting scars some of which never can be made right.

If you can't bring yourself to act like a Christian when someone is expressing hurt to what he believes to be other brothers and sisters in Christ then you need to have a talk with the Master about your attitude.

ED: And Tim, while you point that finger watch where the thumb is. BTW, Clergy are not the only ones mistreated in churches, nor are laity the only ones who mistreat others. I have been on the receiving end of both and I let it interfere with my relationship with "The Church" for a while. Until the "Master" led me to a UMC singles group which taught that interpersonal conflict requires at least two people.

While some scars can never be made "right". It is also true that a wound will not heal if one keeps picking at it.

[Timothy Bonney]

While some scars can never be made "right". It is also true that a wound will not heal if one keeps picking at it.

All I can say Ed is if you've not been there you don't have a clue. If you've been in a toxic church then you know what it is about. If you haven't you can't imagine. And what you are doing today, wittingly or unwittingly, is attack Gene and I in ways that I no longer tolerate or accept from anyone. Chinmoku.

[Mrs Haruo]

Perhaps it is because my home town was built by a lot of folks who were trying to escape from hell-fire and damnation screaming preachers back East, people who made their living by lumbering and fishing and farming and gathering clams off the beach when the tide was out no matter what day of the week it was, that Western Washington is know as the "NONE" zone, where more folks per capita claim no church affiliation than the rest of the country, and in my childhood, more families owned at least a rowboat if not a motorboat per capita in the country, where you can snow ski, and water ski on the same day if you jolly well please, and there are all kinds of places to "see what God made in the great outdoors rather than talk about Him in a stuffy crowded room wearing uncomfortable clothes" as my father once said, that I side with Gene. I heard my father mention Jesus more often when he hit his thumb with a hammer or was untangling an untrained pony tangled in a harness and trying not to get kicked. I was not a church going kid, we were not a church going family. Mom and Dad went if there was a funeral or a wedding, but that was it for us. We were more likely out on the roads up into the mountains with a picnic basket on Sundays growing up. I went to Sunday school until I was about 5 and got run over by a bunch of stampeding upper-graders, and never returned till I found myself learning to water-ski with a vacation bible school for teenagers at the age of 15. I discovered something that made the kids I admired the most at my junior really tick, and I wanted Jesus too. The teacher of the 9th grade girls told me she wanted to discuss a booklet called "The Four Spiritual Laws" with me, anywhere I wanted to meet her. I decided to find out if she really meant what she said and told her to meet me at the Northeast entrance to Bridal Trails State Park. I rode my pony down the power line road to meet her the next afternoon, and took her on a tour of the muddier trails. I prayed the prayer in the book with her and my pony was my witness. From then on I was at the church every time the doors were open, but I still say I learned more about the 10 commandments and the wisdom of Proverbs, and most of the teachings of the Bible by watching my father and how he lived his life.
I was not an english major so you can pick on me for run on sentences all you like, but that's my story and I am sticking to it.

I have never been a preacher's kid, so I haven't walked in your shoes, Gene, but I have sure seen a lot of muck slung by so-called "Good Christians" in a lot of churches. It smells nasty no matter what the sign on the door of the church says.